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SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Chip supply, semiconductor investments, US manufacturing, CHIPS Act, private sector investments, semiconductor fabrication, Texas hubs, Arizona hubs, New York hubs, supply chain resilience, intellectual property, technical jobs, infrastructure development, clean rooms, digital technology.
SPEAKERS
Angela Thurman, Damon Pistulka
Damon Pistulka 00:02
All right, everyone, welcome once again to the faces of business. I am your host, Damon Pistulka, and I am so, so excited today, so blessed to be able to have Angela Thurman on as my guest today. And today we are going to be talking about something that Angela knows a lot about. We’re going to be talking about rebuilding America’s chip supply inside the planned semiconductor investments in the US. Angela, thanks for being here today.
Angela Thurman 00:30
Well, thanks, Damon, it’s my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Damon Pistulka 00:33
Oh, it’s awesome to have you here today. And we were catching up before we got on. And you have quite a background in the silicon chip sector in the United States. Let’s just talk about your background a little bit, because I know there’s a lot more than just the silicon work, but let’s start there, because that did start right out of college for you.
Angela Thurman 00:52
It did so following my graduation, before I could take my first real job at at NASA, I had a summer where I was sort of at loose ends, and so during that time, I took an internship at a company called Eagle pitcher specialty materials division in Quapaw, Oklahoma, which is at the extreme northeast corner of Oklahoma. It is right on the Kansas border and the Missouri border to the east. And it’s that whole area is really filled with some amazing history. And so the reason that eagle pitcher is in that region is because that was once a very vital mining area. And so they mined for lead and zinc and 10, I believe, but definitely lead and zinc and and so. Eagle pitcher specialty materials division produced germanium and silicon, both for its electro optical properties and for semiconductor grade materials. Semiconductor material is mono crystalline, meaning it is a single crystal grown in use. Those are karoski method, which means this, this raw metal just for it’s a semiconductor, so it’s not really metal, but, yeah, we’ll just call it metal. For the sake of argument. They melted it in a crucible, and so the crucible spins in one direction, and then a a seed crystal is lowered into that molten metal, and it spins in the opposite direction, and so very slowly, the seed crystal is withdrawn from that molten metal, and a new crystal grows, and that, that new crystal, called a bull, can weigh, in the case of germanium, 50 pounds. Wow. I mean, it’s big, it’s heavy, it is a big thing, and it’s all in one single crystal formation. It’s absolutely perfect. Wow, just imagine that. And then, in the case of silicon, they’re grown in even larger chambers. And so they might range from like 60 to 80 pounds. Wow, and again, it’s all one single crystal formation, and depending on the sea crystal that you use, that determines the orientation of that, that of that crystal, so in a three dimensional plane that could have, that means that crystal could have, like a one, 1o orientation, a 101 orientation, and so forth and and That would mean something, yeah, wait for people. But, we we would also then introduce dopants, depending on and these are other elements that you would introduce to the germanium or the silicon to the. Cause the the germanium or the silicon to take on electrical properties to make it either positive or negative, okay, hype. And that’s when you’re building a semiconductor, you’ll have layers of PNP or NPN, and that’s what creates the electrical properties for
Damon Pistulka 05:27
semiconductor. That’s really interesting.
Angela Thurman 05:30
Yeah, yeah. So it was a really great experience. And during that summer, I worked with Dr Joy Richter, conducting research. And so I would take these two centimeter the two centimeters on on one side, and then what, one by one centimeters on on the other two sides. So they were long, long rectangles, but square on the edges, yeah, samples and put them into a test apparatus that would heat them up. And so we were measuring resistivity versus temperature. So I was mapping the resistive resistivity of the sample over a range of temperatures, and that, you know, became some pretty historical work. So it went into his research, and it also then the the finished graph went into the marketing material from for eco picture, and was, you know, referenced by everyone from that point forward. So it was, it was a great experience.
Damon Pistulka 06:53
So Does, does, in general, does a recessivity go down or go up as the temperature goes down or up? Does it go the same as in, temperature goes higher, resistivity goes higher, or
Angela Thurman 07:04
it goes down. It goes down, yeah, as the as the the material heats up, the resistivity goes down,
Damon Pistulka 07:13
yeah, yeah. So you want it warmer, if you wanted to go faster, yes, yes, there you go. Ah, interesting stuff. So, you know, we, we’ve got a lot of things happening in the chip world. I mean, it started a few years ago now, and investments, well, you know, covid showed us that our supply chain for chips was, was very dependent on, on, really, on one, one country, and we decided to change that a little bit. So just talk a little bit about what’s happening in the US and what’s happening with the chip infrastructure in the US.
Angela Thurman 07:53
Okay, yeah, of course. So, so the the chip industry is very, very dependent on Taiwan and and there are, there are some types of chips that are made exclusively in Taiwan, and that’s not something that’s going to change very quickly. But thankfully, due to the chips Act, there is a great deal of funding that is is now available for US manufacturers, and because of the federal funding that’s available, that has also sparked commercial funding as well. So I’m just going to read from some of the stats that that I’ve got pulled up. So according to the 2025 semiconductor industry associations state of the industry report, companies in the US and my semiconductor ecosystem have announced more than half a trillion dollars in private sector investments. So that’s, that’s a
Damon Pistulka 09:06
500 b5, 100 B with a billion, over 500
Angela Thurman 09:11
billion, so half a trillion dollars, yeah, in private sector investments. So that’s apart from the government investment, the government funded chips act, yes and so globally, McKenzie reports that semiconductor firms plan to invest roughly a trillion in new fabrication plants Through 2030 so that that’s coming up really fast. Oh yeah, the the amount of time that it takes to build a new facility and then add all of the equipment, get the workforce in place, that’s coming up really fast. Yeah. And then the the chips Act was actually signed in August of 2022 and that authorized about 280 billion to boost the US semiconductor research and manufacturing. So we’re already seeing that being put to work here in the US. I know, you know, I’m in Houston. I’m in Texas. Texas is a huge semiconductor manufacturing and research force. We’ve got, you know, two big, big hubs of semiconductor fabrication centered around Dallas, the north side of Dallas, Sherman and that area, and then also in Austin. And then you had mentioned in our discussion before the show started about seeing new facilities in Arizona. Arizona is another big hub. And then to finish off, that that trifecta, if you will, New York is leading the way with advanced semiconductor production and packaging and research as well. So those, those three states, New York, Arizona and Texas, are really where the the focus has been thus far, although there, there are many other facilities that are outside that triangle, but, but, you know, we’re seeing a lot of growth in in those three states, primarily.
Damon Pistulka 11:48
Yeah, so when we think about chips, I mean, there’s chips and everything, right? Anything electronic anymore, just about has chip toys, little trinkets, you know, we got, we have, you know, $10 toys that have chips in them anymore. Exactly, exactly. Talk about the chips that we’re gearing up to to produce in the United States. Is there a certain sector of chips? Is there a certain, you know, are we looking at higher end chips? Are we looking for more specialized what? What is it really that we’re doing in the US, that as far as we’ll change the supply chain?
Angela Thurman 12:23
Well, one thing that we want to think about is, you know, we just want our our entire supply chain, to be more resilient, and we don’t want to be in a position where we’re going to jeopardize our safety, security and our economy. Yeah, so right now, if, and, and, you know, in the covid days prior to the chips act, for example, you know, anything and everything could be dependent on a foreign government, yeah, for for our manufacturing, and that could be anything from your, your your vehicle, to an F 35 fighter jet, yeah to your your mobile handset, your your cell phone, Yeah to your refrigerator. But you know also life saving medical devices. Yep, all of those things could be and actually were dependent on the chips that were manufactured in other locations or in shores and without any sort of, you know, any malice or anything like that, just the the time it took to to get those products to our manufacturing facilities. Just it, just it took ages, yeah, any kind of design changes would have to be approved and and implemented into into the products. So that also added added time to the manufacturing process as well. And so having those chips now built in the US is going to just reduce the manufacturing time by weeks, even months, because we don’t have to worry about the logistics of, you know, ships coming from, you know, other shores, and then having to go through the docks and and and customs and all of that.
Damon Pistulka 14:58
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and yeah, if I remember, right during, during the time when we really were hitting the chip shortage, we had vehicles that were being delivered without chips because they had no room with the factories anymore to hold the vehicles that already didn’t have chips to produce and and I even think about a friend of mine that ran a truck, upfitting company, fairly good sized one, and they had literally 10s of trucks sitting in there, a lot that the dealerships had to deliver because they had no room. And they were their trucks, but they didn’t have all the components, all the electronics in them yet, and some they could roll in and work on them, but they couldn’t start them and use all the equipment on them. Yes, yeah, it was really quite a deal when that, when it happened, I can see why this caused, you know, probably billions and billions of dollars of upset into our economy and cost overruns. Yes. So, yeah, it was quite an awakening. And it’s cool to see, though, that we are investing. Because, my goodness, these are big facilities. They’re big. Yes, I mean, it looked like the one I drove by. It was like, it’s, it’s at least in the 10s of acres, if not well over 100 and into into the like, 200 acres, because it looked like, you know, I grew up in the Dakotas where, you know, 640 acres is a mile square. I don’t know if they were quite that big, but they were big. You know, it was big the one I saw in Arizona. And you have to imagine that, just to gear up for that, like you said, to get ready to construct a refinery size facility is years just planning and permitting and design and so when, I mean, when are we going to see? Do you have any idea when we’re going to actually see production starting in the US?
Angela Thurman 16:54
Well, some of these manufacturers are doing expansions. Okay, here in Texas, we’re seeing a lot of expansions facilities, yes, yeah. And I think that will, we, Will, we’ll see more of that, yeah. And so we should be seeing production from those facilities. I, I would suppose even this year, yeah, so they’re going, they’re going to be adding additional lines for, okay, new, new wavelengths. So their chips are going to be, you know, maybe wide, wide band gap or a different type of, yeah, yeah.
Damon Pistulka 17:46
I know nothing about chips and other man, I, to me, it’s made out of sand and a bunch of metal. And that’s
Angela Thurman 17:53
sand is silicon. It’s, that’s only silicon. And there are, there are other, there are other elements, yeah, are semiconductors as well, and and they have very specific applications. So, so germanium was the original transistor, okay, and it’s still widely used, especially for power applications. But, you know, silicon is still, you know, the big workhorse, you know, it’s, it’s the second most abundant element on Earth. So we’re going to be, we’re going to be using a lot of silicon. But even, you know, carbon is a semiconductor. You know, diamond is a semiconductor in certain applications, wow. And then, you know, we’ve got several compounds. So if we think about gallium arsenide, indium arsenide, you know, even tin and lead in, in certain applications can be semiconductors, huh?
Damon Pistulka 19:12
So, so, so as we, as we see this, are we, we probably won’t see a, you know, drastic change in pricing and the end products or things like that from it, but what you’re saying is we’ll just have a more stable supply to feed the products that we have around us.
Angela Thurman 19:30
Well, some people say that because the the labor charges in the US are more expensive than they are in other countries that this is going to cause the chips that are built in the US to be more expensive, but that that has to be weighed with the fact that you you now have a reliable source that is. Is local, and so when you think about the total cost for purchasing those chips, it’s a risk mitigation, yeah. So is it worth it to pay a little more for chips that are manufactured in the US, when you know you’ll have a reliable, reliable source that can be delivered in a matter of, say, weeks rather than months. And and have that you know that that other source is you is,
Damon Pistulka 20:43
yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and that, that risk factor, is a big deal, I mean, because if you’re in, say, you’re in Arizona, Texas or New York, and even if my plant is across my plant where I’m producing something that needs the chips is, is in Detroit. Say, within a few hours, you can have a 747, full of chips to your to your door if you really need it
Angela Thurman 21:09
exactly, exactly. So that’s a, that’s a million pounds worth of chips, by the way,
Damon Pistulka 21:14
yeah, yeah. And then it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s doable, I mean, and, and that’s one thing I think that you know that can really, really make a huge difference, is that risk factor we’ve all gotten comfortable with off during and it’s, it’s, it definitely needs to be a part of our overall economy and how we do things. But there’s certain things you know that well, like we saw in in covid, just simple things, as simple as surgical masks or or other other products that we take, take, we take for granted that they just are going to always show up and, and we don’t understand that supply chain behind them can be around on the other side of the world. And if you know it can be an earthquake, it could be a hurricane, it could be whatever, and, and you could be without those products for months.
Angela Thurman 22:03
And one thing I also want to point out is, you know, the transistor was invented in the US, yes. And you know, somehow we, we did, we didn’t value our own intellectual property, and we just more or less gave it away, yeah, and so for me, I, I’m looking forward to a day when, when, when the US returns to leading the development of of chips and and and technology like that, yeah, so we don’t have to rely on third party manufacturers for For these, you know, really, really important devices. So when, when it is especially a strategic intellectual property, yeah, may play a role in our security and defense. Let’s, let’s keep that IP at home. Yeah?
Damon Pistulka 23:20
Well, you make, you make a great point, because even something, and this is, I’m kind of minimizing it a little bit, there’s a word that might work, a chip that’s in in your vehicle, right? It could be a chip that’s in your vehicle. But if I outsource all the design, all the thing, and I just tell somebody, I want the chip to do this, and they’re around the globe. My vehicle depends on them, whereas, if I own it, and, or at least a company in the US owns it, or that we work with, and we know at least that if the government stable, we probably can do, do, you know, relatively stable we can do what we need to do, and, and that’s that’s quite a, quite a difference when you’re looking at, you know, what does, what does the production of one vehicle produce for revenue and jobs and profit for, you know, just take like an f1 50. Say your f1 50 chips were made in in Taiwan. I know they do a great job of making chips, don’t, yeah, not saying anything wrong. But if, if, you know, I live in earthquake country, and they always say, when the big one comes the whole way, you know, the whole West Coast is going, or a lot of it is, and you know, if something horrible like that happened, you you’re done. That vehicle’s done. And not, at least having dual source, there’s nothing else is a huge risk. Yeah, on simple things, on just and that vehicle is not simple, but, I mean, it’s an everyday thing, yeah? And, you know, vehicles are, I think, are great, because, just like everything else, the amount of technology on them just continues to escalate faster and faster. Yeah, well,
Angela Thurman 24:59
you know. In in Austin, we already have self driving vehicles on the road. And, I mean, we have, here in Texas, we have semis there that are autonomous. Wow, yeah,
Damon Pistulka 25:16
that’s cool, yeah. And, you know, and again, it’s, it’s all powered by chips, and it’s cool to see that we’re investing in chips, and we’re making this a part of of the future for us, because, you know, if, if we get that new a trillion, and a new new investment by industry by 2030 that’s going to make a big difference. It is, yeah, that’s super cool. So what are you? What is what excites you about this? Because this, you know, I mean, you, you like to do big projects, you like technical stuff, managing these, all the intricacies of these kind of things. What really excites you about this?
Angela Thurman 25:54
Um, I think the fact that it, it’s just the further extension of something that already exists. And we’re so accustomed to having, you know, digital technology at our fingertips, and we don’t, we don’t even think about what, you know, how the chips are placed on the printed circuit boards and, and, but it’s, it’s really, really technical and and important, and it’s, I mean, it can become mind boggling if you really, I just, I just, I mean, these are the kinds of things that I love to think about and to work on to help people solve problems that They’re facing with sort of thing. So you mean supply chain for this type of project is just rampant with opportunity to improve, and of course, that that appeals to me. So how can, how can we make the whole supply chain better, yeah, make it work together better for everyone. So, so will this drive?
Damon Pistulka 27:32
Will this drive the production of upstream materials too, for the chip manufacturing in the United States? Because, I mean, probably have it in the ground now, or the resources someplace here in the US, and we probably weren’t shipping it across the globe, but now, if so, that will be an interesting development too over the next years.
Angela Thurman 27:55
So, you know, the US is, is rich with all sorts of minerals. And you know, we talked about sand. So, you know, all of these different things can, can, can be used in the production of the raw materials that go into the production of these semiconductor materials. And I mean, like I I talk about, you know, Oklahoma, you know, there’s has this a lot of people don’t realize, but has this rich history from, you know, my grandpa used to, you know, be a minor, when he was a kid. And, you know, yeah, zinc and lead and tin and germanium is a byproduct of the lead and zinc smelting process. I mean, they back in the early 1900s they didn’t realize that that was the really good stuff. It was just a byproduct. Yeah, went away, yeah, yeah, incredible.
Damon Pistulka 29:10
That’s incredible. So in terms of jobs, what this I mean? Because if this means as big as this is, big as investment is, there’s gotta be a just a, first of all construction jobs, multi year construction jobs, yes, yes, you know, because it’s not just, if you think about the buildings are huge, the equipment are huge. They got to source the equipment someplace. They’ve got to build the buildings, but they’ve got to build the roads. They’ve got to build the electrical infrastructure to go in there. They’ve got to get all the utilities for miles
Angela Thurman 29:43
and miles all of that. Yeah.
Damon Pistulka 29:46
Gotta be a ton of jobs created by this investment. Yep,
Angela Thurman 29:48
yep. So that’s, that’s like the first phase is all of the construction and infrastructure, yeah. And then you think about, you know, these facilities are going to have clean rooms, um. Um, it’s, it’s very, it’s a very sensitive ecosystem, and so that’s going to be coming in as well. These are the the the jobs that it that these new factories will bring will be technical, skilled labor, and it’s also going to be bringing in a lot of engineering and technical specialists and all of that, designers and so forth as well.
Damon Pistulka 30:36
Wow. Super cool. It sounds like we’re at the, at the precipice of some exciting times with the chips in the United States.
Angela Thurman 30:45
I think so. I think so. Yeah, I’m excited about it. And I think, you know, there’s almost nothing that you can purchase today that doesn’t have some kind of chip in it, yeah, let’s, let’s think about going to everything, you know, he’s looking around your room for me, it’s going to be Walmart, yeah, and, and just, you know, anything, yeah, like you said, toys or a laptop, a cell phone,
Damon Pistulka 31:21
yeah, you got your air pods. You got, you know, anything, remote controls. You’ve got, you know, everything’s got it in there, even, even your your holiday lights,
Angela Thurman 31:34
exactly, you know, your doorbell now, yeah, everything, everything is, is digital. And if it’s digital, there’s a semiconductor in there somewhere.
Damon Pistulka 31:47
Yeah, yeah. Good stuff. Good stuff. Well, it’s, it’s awesome talking about this, because I’m excited to see that. You know, this is, this is probably one of the more major investments that we’ve made in manufacturing in the United States in the last decade or so.
Angela Thurman 32:03
Oh, yes, a long time. Yeah, and it’s going to have impacts for several decades. Yeah, it’s, it’s something that I’m so pleased to see. You know, the the decision to to make a major investment in US manufacturing,
Damon Pistulka 32:28
yeah, yeah, that’s awesome. Well, Angela, thanks so much for being here today. It was awesome talking to you today about, you know, this, the chip Act, the investment that’s coming around, and how America’s rebuilding the chip supply, because I think it’s going to be exciting times for this ahead and yeah, just good stuff. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. So if someone wants to reach out to you, Angela, what’s the best way to get a hold
Angela Thurman 32:55
of you? LinkedIn is a great way to to reach me, or my my website, Thurman co.com
Damon Pistulka 33:05
All right, and that’s t, h, u r, M, a n, c o.com, yes, Thurman CO, Cominco, I want to say thanks to Angela Thurman for being here today. Again, I want to thank all you that are out there listening. I can see you out there that were listening. Thanks so much. I appreciate that each and every day. And if you didn’t hear what we had talked about, got in late. Go back to the beginning. Angela and I were talking about the over $1 trillion of new investment in chip fabrication and Chip facilities in the United States over the next five or so years, because we’re getting close to 2020, 2030, and how that’s going to change, how it’s going to change things in US manufacturing. So Angela, hang out. We’ll finish offline, but I want to say thank you to everyone for being here today. We will be back again. You.
