48:01
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, plateaued, business, grow, eos, build, fractional, plateaus, clients, company, system, objective, process, cycle, ceo, talking, align, coaching, lifetime earnings, implementer
SPEAKERS
Mark Scrimenti, Damon Pistulka
Damon Pistulka 00:01
All right, everyone, welcome once again, the faces of business. I’m your host, Damon pistulka, and wow, am I excited for our guest today, we got Mark scarmanti here today, we’re going to be talking about vivid path. We are going to be talking about breaking through plateaus to grow your business Mark. Thanks for being here today.
Mark Scrimenti 00:25
You’re welcome. Damon, it’s great to see you. I always love talking to you, and I’m excited to talk about this today.
Damon Pistulka 00:31
Oh man, we’re going to have some fun, because you you have incredible experience, incredible e commerce experience, other various background experience. It’s just so fun to talk to you because you’ve been there. That’s the thing that I really enjoy talking with you, Mark. And you’ve you’ve had to work these businesses through these plateaus, and that’s why I think it’s going to be really fun talking to you about this today. So well, likewise,
00:55
yeah, let’s
Damon Pistulka 00:56
take off. So tell us, tell us about your background mark and how you really got here doing what you’re doing. Yeah,
Mark Scrimenti 01:06
well, you know how far back you want me to go. I can give you the abridged version. There you go, starting maybe in chapter 26 if my career is a book, and that would put me about 2018 and so this is right after a 12 year stint in E commerce, online retail, selling musical instruments. And I’ve talked to you about that company before. We can talk a little bit more about it later, but I’ll move on. We did everything in house there. I’ll talk about that a little bit. And that ended after 12 years, and I took some time off, and I’m happy to talk about that too. But then, you know, it was on to the next thing. And, you know, I found a role as a Chief Product Officer, Chief Operating Officer at a software as a service company. And it was an interim role. Took him about 10 months to find that role checked all the boxes, and it had the potential to be long term. And after the 90 days, it’s like, you know, this is just not a good cultural fit. And, you know, it was really disappointing. And so here I am after a 10 month job search, like starting over yet again, after being, yeah, place for 12 years, and that was an interesting period, I had to kind of scrape myself off the pavement, you know, pavement, you know, for a few weeks, and I just kind of get that, get back up and add it again, going out to the networking groups and and all that. And I was up for another like, Chief Operating Officer, Chief Product Officer position in the software company right around the time this pandemic started, I think this is just before I met you, and that just evaporated, you know, with the pandemic. And so here I am, and like, what do I do now? And that role was an EOS shop, and they were, they were, do I need to spell out what EOS is for the for the audience? No, they probably know, yeah, the Entrepreneurial Operating System. And I had read the book traction and rocket fuel, and taking the Colby and taking the online courses and everything. I’m like, Yeah, I’m an integrator. That’s what I’ve been doing, you know, for at least 15 years. But then, you know, I that was fresh on my mind, and you know, soon as the pandemic started, the possibility of working remotely, and you know, having clients in other cities and so forth, became possible. So like when I just hang up shingle as a US integrator, fractional CEO, I had heard about this fractional thing right about five years ago. And at the time, I knew two guys in Chicago who were doing it, and, yeah, go drive out an hour away to find out what this fractional thing was, if you were interested, and I was interested. Now, of course, everybody’s a fractional and as well as a coach, which is the other thing I do. I’ll talk about that in a minute. But I started the fractional thing and I got my first, you know, few clients, and mostly word of mouth networking, and kind of figured out how it works and what I’m doing. And, you know, I worked with Eos, which is a great framework, but a lot of the companies who say they’re using Eos, you know, they they’re self implementers. About 10% hundreds of 1000s of companies use Eos, and about 10% at best, use an implementer. So, you know, they’re kind of half in half out. You become the implementer as integrated. That’s a whole other story I can talk about. But so the search for a framework was something that another framework, or my own framework, was part of the deal, and then the process, somebody came up to me and an old, an old employee, and said, you know, hey, do you do any coaching? Because I was, you know, appreciated you back at the old company when you were in a leadership position, and I could use some coaching. And I’m like, you know, I’ve been. Thinking about that. People had suggested, you know, you’d be a good coach. Or, you know, I did a lot of coaching, you know, when I was at this company for 12 years, you know, you bring people up, you mentor them, you coach. And we hired a lot from within. We grew from within. So I’m like, Yeah, let’s give it a shot. Let’s do it. And so that became my first coaching client. And I realized I really enjoy coaching, and it’s been very satisfying and along the line. So that’s one on one. Leadership coaching, I I’m like us, is great, but it’s kind of missing some of the people elements. And fortunately, I found this, this new framework, it’s called system and soul that spun out of Eos for that very reason. So one of the one of the founders of system and soul was an expert EOS implementer for 11 years. Chris White, I don’t know if you know him. He’s great guy. You two would like each other. Great storyteller, and you know, he had a lot of success. He’s Gina Whitman protege, but he and a client spun out after, you know, a while, and said, Look, we need more. It’s us. Is great on process, you know, it’s great on structure, systems, but the people side, like that. You know, that’s at least half the of any organization is the people side. So that’s the soul side of the system and so and try to bring more balance to that. And I discover this framework. I really love it. I think you get everything that you get from EOS, plus, I think they’ve made some refinements to the process side of things, but you also get the people side, leadership development, you know, cultural engineering, really strategic road mapping, that’s a little bit more robust and purposeful, as far as I’m concerned, compared to us. But I’m not here to tout a system like these are all tools for me. Yeah, for tools in the kits i can do either right now, I’ve got an EOS client as a fractional so I do a little bit of I do. I kind of got, like, at least two or three prongs to my it’s sort of a portfolio career at the moment that the fractional coo work, the one on one coaching, and then the the system itself is, is more of a leadership team coaching. So it’s a founder, CEO, typically, and their leadership team.
Damon Pistulka 07:15
Okay?
Mark Scrimenti 07:16
So long answer,
Damon Pistulka 07:18
no, no, it’s good though. It’s good though, kind of because the thing that you got that many coaches don’t have is you’ve got a plethora of experience across different industries. You you’ve, you know, you’ve walked the walk, more than a lot of people have studied the walk. So it’s, it’s very applicable when you’re helping people, I think, to be able to teach them, coach them, help them, lead them, from a point of I’ve been here, I can feel what you feel right now, because I’ve felt that. And this is, this is what I think we should do from here, or maybe you want to consider Right,
Mark Scrimenti 07:55
right, right. And this is something that I talked to an EOS implementer recently, and he said, you know, frankly, you don’t have to necessarily have done anything except pay the, you know, 40,000 $60,000 to get the license, and, you know, to be an EOS implementer that. I mean, there’s a lot of really great ones out there, no question about it. But you know, just having the certification doesn’t necessarily mean anything, you know, and so, yeah, practical experience helps a lot, and I can draw a lot from my experience in E commerce. So, you know, talk about that, this place where I was for 12 years. So it was a an E commerce company and online retail. We sold musical instruments and we built everything in house. So we did, we did product in house. We built the software in house, the front end and the back end. We did digital marketing in house. So we did, you know, SEO, SEM, social, email, video, YouTube, everything in house and all the engineering and analytics and so forth. So, you know, it was really a breadth of talent under one roof. We had a call center, and the company had, you know, plateaued after, you know, maybe 10 years, for about four or five years at, you know, 40 to 50 million mark, and really was lacking structure. So I came in originally as a business process analyst, and then I went into, kind of inherited the marketing team and did some creative direction, because I had some writing background and, and, you know, worked for some startups previously, and, and anyway, I took that on. And then the, you know, operations guy got fired, and I checked that on. So then suddenly, like, you know, a lot of the company is is reporting to me, and the main thing that was missing was, was structure and process. So, you know, we’ve talked about this a little bit before. So implemented agile. Scrum was the first scrum master. A lot of DIY hands on. And then you find somebody else to do it better than you, and you hand it off, you build a team around it, and you move on to the next thing. And after a while, we had to, you know, good leadership team in place, and we grew so a lot of growth during that time, the time that we’re there, a lot of innovation. And, you know, about 100 million in growth over 10 years. And I’m always looking for what’s next, and yeah, and what, and for growth. And so, I mean, this is where I learned about operations, though. This is where I learned to love operations. To the extent that I could say I really love operations. I think I do. It’s about building things. It’s about connecting the dots. And it’s at least half about the people you know, working with people, figuring out how to align everybody, figuring out how to grow people and help them, you know, reach their career goals without leaving the company if possible. So we saw a lot of you know, promote promotion from within, as we identify people’s strengths and talents, and, you know, cultivated career paths for them. As long as long as you’re growing, you can do that, you know, rather than, okay, I’ve gotten everything I can get from you, and now it’s time for me to move on to the next place. So we’re able to maintain a lot of talent that way. Yeah,
Damon Pistulka 11:17
yeah. Growth does allow you to give people great career paths, that’s for sure, right? And when you’re and challenging career paths too, right?
Mark Scrimenti 11:26
Good challenges, right?
Damon Pistulka 11:29
So on that and that journey and other ones, as you talking, you know, today we’re talking about breaking through these plateaus when you’re trying to help these companies grow into something you talk about on your on your profile on LinkedIn and the things that you do. What are some of the plateaus that you saw in your experience, in in either that company, other companies you’ve been in where you go? Okay, here’s, here’s some situational plateaus that I’ve walked in on, sure,
Mark Scrimenti 11:57
well, that one was a lack of structure and process which made it it was impossible to really prioritize work. And in particular, it was tricky, in particular because the founder, CEO had who had built the original e commerce tech stack and infrastructure the website had handed it off to Chief engine, who changed everything, and the two of them were no longer speaking to each other. So, you know, the first guy had to find out what the second guy knew before he let him go. And that was my job, but unbeknownst to me in the beginning. But facilitate that transition, you know, and in a smooth business transition, keep everything running, find out where everything is, how it works, and then move on to the next thing. And so, so that was one issue. And then, you know, in no process, no structures, because that was a situation where, like, either the CEO tells, you know, the guy, what to do and he does it, or he doesn’t do it, and that that’s no way to grow a company. So implementing a process is one, something else that I’ve seen and is very common, especially with my fractional clients and some of the coaching clients, is a founder, CEO, who is still wearing 16 hats and and they’re doing all this stuff that they shouldn’t be doing, and they can’t, you know, they can’t get out of being in the business to work on the business. And so that’s, that’s an important distinction I’m always trying to emphasize. I had a conversation with somebody about it today where, you know, she, she’s sales, acceleration, fractional. CSO, she’s great if you’re listening, you know what I’m talking about. And she was saying, and people have a hard time understanding, you know, working on the business versus working in the business, like to me, it seems obvious. But, you know, like so many things, if it’s the water you swim in, it’s going to seem obvious to you, but you know, really, really making that distinction clear, and that is something that I have really focused on, where I’m like, Okay, think about it. What one metaphor I was trying this out because, like, yeah, it’s really hard to communicate. But one metaphor I’m testing out here, you can tell me if this works for you, is, is sort of, you know, software development. So I’ve been pretty much in the software space my entire career in one way or another. And this idea of, look, you got your production environment, right? That’s, that’s your day to day work. You know, that’s where you know your job description, your roles and responsibilities. Maybe you have a mission for that role or job function, and you’re being held accountable for those things with KPIs. But then, but then, if you but then there’s the the development of our environment. So that’s like, where new software is being built. Like, you know, you roll something out, and it’s kind of crappy, you know, the features are, you. It doesn’t work very well. It doesn’t look very good. Yes, that stuff just doesn’t work. And you’re so you’re working on a dev, and usually it’s gonna be like a dev, you know, QA environment, then a staging environment, then it gets integrated back into production. Well, like, to me, like that, that cycle, that build cycle, is really important for every business. And whether you’re in software or not, you need to, like, separate out the working on the business from the working in the business, the working in the business that’s your day to day job. The working on the business is how you scale your business and and you need to carve out time for that. You need to put it in its own cycle. I like to put it in a sprint, like a, like an agile scrum sprint, like a two week sprint. And so I have my own thoughts and theories about these, these work cycles. I think that, you know, the daily work cycle, the production work style, is pretty, pretty much, it’s a, it’s a day to day thing, you know, then you got your weekly alignment cycle. Those are your, you know, one on ones, with your team members. If you’re having them, you should be having them. If you’re not, you know, your team meetings, your leadership meetings, and your L 10 for us. And then also, like a, you need a build cycle. I like a two week cycle for that, but a build cycle that’s separate, you know, because otherwise it doesn’t get done. And, you know, here again, US works, and it can work in that space. I even with Eos, though, like in rocks, I like, I like to put them in its own sprint so we can talk about them separately outside of the L, L 10 meeting, and make sure that people are making progress. Yeah, you know, between meetings, and we’re biting off bite sized chunks that they can finish in that two week cycle, blah, blah, blah. But you know, you’re, you’re building something, and then you’re, you’re integrating that back into your production environment. So that, you to me that I know, if that works, does that make sense to you as a metaphor for in the business versus on the business? You know, it’s a classic, Michael Gerber from E Myth revisited. Yeah,
Damon Pistulka 17:04
it does make sense. And, you know, I like your adaptation of using a agile sprint, or the scrum, or the whole thing where you’re talking about, we have a cycle that we’re going to finish a project, because I think what happens with with EOS and other ones, when you talk about the rocks, you know, those are typically quarterly goals, and even sometimes quarterly goals are too big for you to really to break them into the bite sized pieces, right? You often end up it’s like, oh, it rolls from one quarter the other because we didn’t significantly, or didn’t take the time to break it down into the bite sized pieces that we can get done in these shorter time frames, exactly. And they just lag. They just lag.
Mark Scrimenti 17:50
That’s one thing I like about system, and so is that we use OKRs. So we just call them quarterly objectives, and we use OKRs. Have you used ok cares? No, I have not explained its objectives and key results. So, you know, it has its own long history. Andy Grove and Intel and Google, you know, made it famous. And measure what matters. That’s John Doerr, you know, great book and a website. But it’s, it’s so it’s a goal setting methodology, and it’s, really, it’s more art than science, but I think it works really well, not for an innovative organization like Google, it, you know, who’s all their products are? You know, they’re all constantly innovating. It makes sense for that to be part of their regular, you know, yes, day to day, and, you know, quarterly, yearly, the way they do everything and measure things. But, but for the most businesses I work with, small business, this is how I do that. Build cycle I’m talking about, or like rocks. It’s like create OKRs. These are quarterly objectives and and the objective is really a goal that you’ve stated, and the key results are measurable steps that if you, if you do all these things, like five things, if you can say, Yep, I did that. And they have, you know, they have to be things that you can say, yes or no, that’s done, whether, whether that’s, I practice five times a day for one hour a day, you know, playing the piano or something. Or, you know, I finished this draft, or I released this thing, or I, you know, if you check all the boxes it you’ve met the objective. Now that’s the key. If you check all the boxes and you still haven’t met the objective, then you haven’t defined the measurables or the objective correctly. So they kind of work off each other. You know what I mean. And you start out maybe with an objective, and it’s like, Wait, is that really what we want to do, or is that really how we want to put it? Because you know how you word something makes a difference, and then you’re looking at, okay, what are the measurable things that we can do that when we’ve done them, we know that we’ve met that objective. It means we met that objective, yeah, because
Damon Pistulka 19:51
that’s the, that’s the thing. I mean, we can lay out thing with, with, just without, with, if you don’t have clear, you. Start, stop. This is done. That’s done such points. It’s really hard to do those kind of things, but that’s cool, how you’re, you know, breaking it down into the shorter cycles so that you can keep that momentum moving. Right? I think in the plateauing companies. And this is a kind of a lead into this is when you run into the plateauing companies. What is happening is those, those kind of things are not getting done, right?
Mark Scrimenti 20:31
Because it build everything builds on each other, you know. And you want it. You want small, modular pieces that are reproducible. And you know, you want quick wins and all that, but they have to build towards something. And you know, you’re building some margin in. You know, with each cycle that, you know, it’s like becomes the input to the next cycle. And they, they all, you know, they interact these different cycles. You know, they kind of stack on top of each other and inform each other. But you got to be building towards something and and you’re always aligning. This is where, okay, system is so, like, this is the thing that I’m passionate about, is, is the roadmap, and I love that system and so has a roadmap, because it’s really becomes the one page strategy that, you know, it’s the filter that you used to for all your decision making and and everything that you do, your objectives, your you know, need to align with that. Yeah? And so that, do you want to talk about that? Yeah? Yeah.
Damon Pistulka 21:28
It’s funny. You’re saying this because we were just doing this in a meeting earlier this week. We were talking about that very thing. Kurt Anderson and I were like, you know, listen, this is the objective of the business. This This should help guide what we’re doing, because we, we really, it keeps you so focused when you do that.
Mark Scrimenti 21:46
Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s go for it. That’s the thing that I get excited about, you know, I mean, the operation stuff, the cycles and the projects and planning, that’s, that’s just, that’s the meat and the potatoes a bit. But, you know, the bigger picture is, you know, is starting with, why the Simon Sinek thing, having strategic purpose, like everything starts with purpose, because you know that’s what motivates you and keeps you going. You know, through tough times and good times, you know, Peter Drucker said, I love you know this quote. He says, you know, profit for a business is like air. If a human being, if you don’t get enough of it, you’re out of the game. But if you think your life is merely about breathing, you’re really missing something. So nobody really cares about your profit, you know, nobody really cares about your profit margin. I mean, except for you. And you know, you can incent some people, you know, and that might make them care about it more, but, but ultimately, people want meaningful work, you know, there’s this, and that’s, you know, they want to work towards something that matters and and something that’s inspiring, and that’s what and people have a hard time with this, because, like, what, you know, I just sell widgets, you know, and try To treat my customers well at a fair price. And what’s the purpose in that? Well, you gotta, you gotta think about it, but there’s always a purpose. It’s like the ripple effect. What about, you know, yeah, what kind of impact is what kind of difference are you making your customers life and and the people whose lives they’re touching? Or if it’s B to B, like, think not only do you need to know your clients, businesses, really well, but you need to know your clients, clients, businesses and your clients, clients, clients. I mean, you need to, you need to keep thinking outward like that. And you know, I There’s a recent survey where 90% of professionals were saying they would sacrifice up to 23% of their lifetime earnings for work. That is always meaningful. So think about that’s like almost a quarter of their lifetime earnings, yeah. And, and, big surprise, you know, they’re, they’re your most productive people, you know. And so this is, like, you know, attracting entertaining talent is, you know, huge thing for everybody. And what, what this survey says, and it’s proved out in all sorts of other ways, other, you know, research that your best employees, you know, money matters, but only to an extent. They’ll take less money for work that is meaningful. So, what is meaningful work? And how do you, how do you create that? And to me, that’s what this, you know, starting with why? So you’re, you’re looking at, you know, what’s your vision, you know, what’s the, what’s your big, hairy, audacious goal, like, what’s the impact you want to make on the, on the, on the world, and by when, and you know, and why you doing that. Because the you know your purpose is what keeps you going and and then you’re looking at your core values, you know, and how do they align out, you know, through everything you do towards, you know, attaining that vision that you’re trying to attain, it needs to be something inspiring, like the, you know, like Kennedy’s, you know, Moon moonshot live that, you know, the very first literal moonshot, like, we’re going to send a man to the moon by the end of the decade and bring him home safely, like that was it and and they did it. Yeah, and it was extremely inspiring, you know, for a whole nation. So, like a lot of people I’m fighting don’t think big enough either. They’re like, well, you know, and that’s been some of the fun of it is to get people to think bigger and then actually exceed their expectations. That this is, this has happened with coaching clients, and I love it, because they’re, you know, I can think of one, for example, you know, is like, you know, when we started, was like, Well, you know, I don’t want to get too big, you know. And he was in a place where, you know, he has an agency, and in a niche market, and, you know, maybe eight people, and been at it for, you know, seven, eight years, and, you know, doing all right, and kind of hitting, like a million milestone, you know, million, million revenue, so still, you know, on the small side, but, you know, kind of feeling worn out, and I’m not sure how long I want to do this. And you know, it’s a younger guy, like, in his 30s. And so I always start with, where do you want to go, you know, like, just forget it. Just what do you want to do as well, you know, ideally, you know, I had this vision, like, I’d love to move back to the Pacific Northwest, like, your territory, like, you know, buy a house on Vashon Island or something like that. Yeah. And I’m like, Okay, well, you know, by when, you know, in getting a young guy, you know, anybody really think 510, years ahead, that’s, you know, it’s like, it’s hard enough to think you know about next year, but I don’t know, you know, at some point, because I might want to do something different. Okay, well, let’s just, let’s just start with that. Okay, so you know that house is probably gonna cost me $5 million $6 million whatever today, in today’s dollars. So, you know, let’s say, you know, and I’m doing, I’m doing shorthand here, but you know, this is the stuff that you, you do all the time, right? Yeah, you know. Like, okay, so let’s say you’re busy. You’ve got a ten million business. It’s an agency like, it depends on the multiples and the timing and all that kind of stuff. But you know, maybe that nets you, I don’t know, 20 million or something, you know, in a sale. I mean, you guys know all about it. That’ll buy you a house on Vashon Island and some breathing room to do whatever you want to do next, you know. So let’s just start with that a 10 you want a ten million business, okay? Like, what’s the time frame? Okay, let’s just say five to 10 years. Okay, let’s pick a number, 2030 let’s just pick 2030, let’s work backward from there. You know, how do you get there? And then, you know, that gets into, like, all this stuff about OKRs, and, you know, smaller bits and but the larger piece, the larger piece is again, about purpose and what it’s not just about you. You know it’s about your employees. Like, how do you motivate your employees? They you know you need to give them an inspiring vision and a purpose and and and talk about impact. And then, what is impact? It’s it’s making it’s changing lives. That’s what it comes down to. Changing people, is lives. And, you know, when people talk about purpose, there’s, you know, they’re like, you know, I gotta be Patagonia, you know, like, I gotta be changing the world, you know, like, a huge environmental mission. Like, that’s one way to do it. And they, yeah, they walk the walk, you know, they, they, they put their money where their mouth is. They’re a B Corp, too. And if you know about that B Corp, it’s a whole, do you know that? You know about B Corp? Yeah, I’ve heard of them whole, whole thing, but, but that’s not the only way to do it. You’re just even treating your people well, like having a great culture, like that’s one way to make an impact. And again, think about the ripple effect on their families and then on your clients, thinking about all your stakeholders and and then really aligning that with your values, and making sure you walk the walk. And you got to cultivate that stuff, like, it’s like gardening. You got to water that, that, you know, the good stuff, and you got to rip out the old stuff and toss it out. I mean, the bad stuff. Yeah,
Damon Pistulka 29:00
I think, I think one of the things that leaders, when they’re plateauing, they forget how much, how important it is to keep spreading the vision, right? Because that vision is always pulling us forward, leading us there so we can see where we want to go. And if you stop communicating the vision, like you said, start out with your your strategic why? Why are we doing this? Why we’re, you know, how are we going to make an impact? How are we going to help our community, ourselves, our employees, all that. But once you stop, as a leader, doing that, because it it almost I really admire these companies that do it consistently every single day, that really do it, because they are the ones that you see. You know you mentioned Google, they know what they’re doing every day. They know where they’re trying to go every single day. Everybody’s trying to trying to keep everybody rolling the same way, and it’s. And the companies that do that, well, I think they, they have far fewer plateaus, because we’re always looking to the next hill, because we just got to the top of this one. But our our end goal kind of, it’s great, and it’s really pulling us, but it’s continuing to move away from us just a little bit. Right? Yeah, right,
Mark Scrimenti 30:21
right. And, yeah, exactly. And then, if I was like, You’re never done, like, if you think you’re done, then, then you probably you’re good,
Damon Pistulka 30:29
yeah, well, it, it’s it, you know, we’re talking about plateaus. What are some of the things that you see when you’re coaching people that that really, that you go. So if someone’s listening today and they’re wondering, Am I plateaued or not? What are some of the things that you see that would be common, that they they would go, well, maybe I am.
Mark Scrimenti 30:51
Yeah, you’re, well, you’re, you’re, you’re not growing, either in in revenue or profitability, or if you are, it’s inconsistent. It’s not a steady it’s not a steady line that says some up, there’s some down. Yeah, you’re, yeah, that’s one people are leaving. Or you’re, you’re, you can’t retain good people. Or you’ve had the same people forever and and you love them to death, but you know in your your heart and in your mind that you’re going to need other people if you’re going to make this, if you’re going to get to where you want to go, if you keep, you know, having the same issues over and over again, or the same conversations over and over again and and you don’t feel like You’re making any progress. You flat towed. If you’re still doing, you know what you were doing? I don’t know 510, years ago, like you’ve plateaued. Those are some examples. I’m trying to think, what are some common ones that you see other others?
Damon Pistulka 31:55
Well, I was just going to ask you, how long do you think it is before someone should say, Hey, we’ve plateaued. Is it six months? Is it 90 days? Is it five years? What do you think?
Mark Scrimenti 32:05
Well, it kind of depends on your cash flow, and, and, and, yeah, that’s true, right? But I mean, five years definitely, like, you know, where I had you won’t see it necessarily. A lot of it depends on scale too. I think, like, you know, if you’re at 50 million, and you go from 50 to 51 and 51 to 47 and 47 to 50 and 50 to 43 you know, like, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s okay. It’s not until you hit 43 that you realize, okay, we’re, we’re definitely plateaued, although, although, to me, if you’re not growing consistently, even if the you know, the revenue or the profitability may lag like a year or two, but if you’re not growing in some deliberate way, like, I know we didn’t, we didn’t, we weren’t as profitable this year as last year because we hired a bunch of great new people, you know, okay, right? So, like, you can’t just look at the revenue numbers, but you have to look at it strategically, like if you’re deliberately investing in the business, yeah, that number, you know, your top line is going to go to, or you know your bottom line is going to go down and but that, but at least you’re making progress. But if that doesn’t next year, then lead to, you know, some kind of growth that you know shows up, I think, in the bottom line. Then, you know, then something probably still isn’t working if you didn’t hire the right people, or, you know, your strategy isn’t working, you know, or you’re you’re not, you’re not done yet, you’re not and again, you’re never done until you’re done, and then it’s over. And so to me, constant growth is, is the thing. And I was thinking about this earlier, just like, how you start by, like, making something or and then it really becomes more about how you make it. It’s more like about the the methodology than the thing itself, because that’s the thing that you keep, keeps building, you know, that keeps you going. It’s the it’s the process
Damon Pistulka 34:01
that is a great point. It’s how you do it, in the process of doing it and getting really efficient and really good at doing it, to continue to do it at scale and larger volumes and and, and more efficiently,
Mark Scrimenti 34:14
exactly, and, and then, and then, also thinking about like, how could we use the same process to do something else? You know that is, it brings in another source of revenue, and that’s, you know, where I’ve seen, you know, a lot of light bulbs go off for people. It’s like, you know, talk about clients, you know, where you know, my my advice is, I was like, don’t turn down, like, an opportunity to grow, you know, like this young CEO is like, you know, well, we have an opportunity to do like, like, trade packaging, you know, so something we haven’t done before, and it’s like, so we can’t do that. Why can’t you do that? You know, like, all the things involved in doing it, like you do most of those things, it’s just like a different channel or different medium. You know, but, but, like, is there any reason why you can’t do it? I guess not. And now they’re doing it, of course, and and it’s it not only another source of revenue, but it’s leading to other opportunities. So that’s just, that’s just an example. And what matters more, I think, is the talent that you have on your team and in the process that you use. So you can say something, no, no. I
Damon Pistulka 35:21
just, I’m just, I’m agreeing with you there. I’m agreeing the talent you have on your team. And, mean, I think you said it before a bit ago, you know, you have people leaving, or have the right people. Had the same people there forever, but those people aren’t growing. I mean, yeah, the I think as you get bigger, your team is what really is going to constrain you,
Mark Scrimenti 35:46
yeah, yeah, for sure, growth. I mean, I I’ve never been in a situation. I’ve never had a like a set, a successful transformation that didn’t involve a change in personnel. It doesn’t mean everybody. It’s not like 100% turnover, like you try and save as many as possible. And it may be, you know, a new role, you know, here again, like this is where we, you know, can get back to the frameworks of, like, what makes the right person right seat, and do they align with your core values? That’s, that’s one thing, you know, if it’s not a core values fit. And here’s the thing, the core values, you write them in such a way that it can be a filter, right? I mean, talk about core values. They should, you know, lead to more no’s than yeses. In a way, it they’re, they’re exclusive in some ways, rather than, you know. I mean, it’s like it’s deciding who you want and who you don’t Yes. And I’ve worked with people to write core values to address issues that they consistently have but have failed to address. This is one way to do that. So, for example, your people are afraid of conflict, and this is so common, right? People don’t know how to do conflict. Well, make that core value, and you write it in such a way. Like, you know, we, we, we’re all we try to be, you know, kind, but direct, and, you know, in resolving problems together, you know, however you want to put it. But then when that comes up again and somebody’s avoiding the issue, like, you can point back to that and say, Look, this is a core value of ours. Like, either you’re with us on that, or you’re not, so that that’s that’s one thing. But then there’s also, like, kind of fitness for the role? Does it? Does it? Does it really fuel them? Is it really the right time for them, and can they? Can they make an impact in the role? Can they grow with Rob You mentioned growth like, your employees aren’t growing, like, as long as they’re growing, that’s, that’s huge. Like, growth mindset, like, I’m all about growth mindset. I think I was about growth mindset before I even knew it was a thing. Yeah, just, like, just, I like to learn, and that motivates me, and and I think, I think, you know, you want people are going to be able to grow with you. And who are, who like to grow, who, you know, who are just, well, I don’t that. I don’t know how to do that. I’ve never done that before. Like, okay, well, then we’re gonna have to, either you figure it out or want to hire somebody else to do it, and then I’m not sure what you’re going to do anymore. Yeah, and
Damon Pistulka 38:24
that’s the thing about scaling too. I mean, when we’re talking about these plateaus, there are certain points when what we did yesterday was perfectly fine, but over time, it’s gotten to be more and more arduous to handle the scale that we’re at that we need to re do a complete reset on what we what we do, and start over with a different system, different process, whatever, just because we have to. And that’s where I think a lot of companies get plateaued, because you get people that are so resistant to system change that it just stops the stops the growth. And they go, Well, we need to hire more people. Well, you don’t need to hire more people, because pretty soon you find I’ve got rooms full of people, but we still have the same issue,
Mark Scrimenti 39:07
right? Exactly, exactly? Yeah, that that’s, that’s interesting. So, um, because I’m trying to think like we grew, like at this other company, you know, $100 million and I think that was all like we did Agile Scrum, like that’s, and that’s what I love about system. It’s so flexible that it could grow, and we never outgrew it. But I do think there must be inflection points where it depends. I mean, you want, you want a system that’s flexible and adaptable, yeah, but there are some that break, you know, yes,
Damon Pistulka 39:41
yes. But I think if by using the Agile scroll methodology, you were able to continue pushing the boundaries of what are we going to do, reinventing what we’re doing on a consistent basis? Yeah, just stay ahead of that. And that’s that’s where you most companies. Is they go, Oh, we haven’t changed this forever, because it works. We just don’t even mess with it, right, right? If it is, and they’re not sitting there looking at, well, that was fine yesterday. And like an E commerce, it’s real common thing. Well, five years ago, we might have done, you know, 100 transactions a day. Now we’re doing 1000 transactions a day, or 2000 or 5000 and you just the systems just can’t do it, especially if you were doing it manual at one time. And, you know, you just can’t anymore, right,
Mark Scrimenti 40:26
right? And if, yeah, and what are you gonna do? Shut down the whole operation, you know, to make the the switch, right? So it’s like, constant, you know, again, like, like Toyota, like hyzenios, continuous improvement, constant innovation, continuous change. Like again, you have to embrace that, I think, in any industry really like that, the Googles, the software people, the intellectual property people, that’s the status quo. It may be different in older industries, but here again, I think more and more in today’s marketplace, you have to adapt that mentality of, how are we going to continually innovate? And otherwise you’re going to get, you know, either crushed from above or disrupted from below. You need to be thinking, you need to embrace change. And that that’s, that’s very hard for a lot of people, especially companies have been around for a long time, and that’s, that’s why, I guess change management consultants exist, yeah, but, but I feel like, you know that’s, that’s what we do too. You know, just like,
Damon Pistulka 41:31
well, we have to continue to do it, because we have to help others do it.
Mark Scrimenti 41:34
Right, right? Exactly. Yeah, yep.
Damon Pistulka 41:38
So when you’re talking about system and soul. You mentioned that, and so what really drew you into using this methodology?
Mark Scrimenti 41:46
Yeah, well, I like it. I mentioned a little bit earlier because it has more of the people side of things to it. It’s robust in terms of tools that address human issues. So, you know, it starts with this one page roadmap where you define your hedgehog concept, you know, that’s from Jim Collins, good to grade, and you know your why, and your B hag and your onlyness statement, which is like, you know, you you define your sandbox or your playing field, we’re the only what, like, you know, what do you do? You know, it seems obvious, but it’s, you can niche it, you know, like, when you describe, like, what you guys do, like, you know, it could be or for me, like, you know, like, how do I describe what I do as a coach? You know, like, it every because everybody’s a coach, yeah, and but, and then what’s the differentiator? You know, it’s like you define the playing space, and within that playing space, what’s going to differentiate you? And then, you know, there’s this whole cultural engineering piece, like, where we’re looking at, you know, what’s that ideal culture that you want to build? Let’s, let’s describe it, you know, then let’s go back to your core values and revisit those like, and then what are some of the organizational habits that you could cultivate that would help bring this to life. And they all, you know, they go together. And, you know, there’s some good examples of that. And you’re like, what core value I love from a client is, everybody makes the coffee, you know? And that’s a great one. It’s a statement, and you could break it down into attributes, but like, those attributes would be like, it’s a democratic organization, you know, there’s, it’s not huge on hierarchy. Like, whether you’re the CEO or the summer intern, you drink the last cup of coffee, you make the next pot, you know, like that says something about the culture. And then, you know, how do you take it out of the lunchroom? And, you know, extrapolate that to everything else we do. And then there’s a whole bunch of, you know, like we there’s a personal roadmap. So for your employees, you can figure, like, what career roadmap I can hear again, aligning career goals and aspirations with company goals. How do they fit together? We do? Patrick Lencioni, stuff, there’s a lot of stuff that you can it’s, it’s open source, that’s the other thing. So it’s constantly borrowing and partnering with other organizations. So it’s very dynamic. A lot of new tools. Coaches are inventing new tools, and it’s a very, it’s a very collaborative coaching community, so sharing tools with each other. And like, Oh, here’s another one, like the six dimensions of compensation we were talking about that a little bit earlier. You know this idea of giving up 23% of your lifetime earnings for work that is meaningful? What are the other ways that people get compensated? Or psychological? Yeah, spiritual, which is like meaning physical, like having the flexibility to work from home, or, you know, take time off. What else? There’s others that you know and each person’s a little bit different, like their profiles are to look different. So you could throw as much money as you want at somebody, if that doesn’t really, if that’s not what. Moves them. They’re like, No, man, I just this work is boring, boring. Now, out of me, like, yeah, or, or, you know, it’s not going to make a difference. So I like it that it’s holistic in that sense, you know, you got the system side and the soul side, and they need to, you know, it’s like a yin yang kind of thing, like they, they both need to fit together, and they speak to each other and and it’s a dynamic thing. It doesn’t, it never stops here again. You never get it perfect. But it’s, it’s something to strive for So, and I like that mentality, and it’s, it’s constantly evolving too. So it kind of fits it. Well, you can continue
Damon Pistulka 45:41
helping the helping your clients move forward in different ways, because as soon as you think you’ve got one master, one thing we’ve addressed, there’s something else that crops up because it just, it’s a, like you said, it’s a continuous process, and exactly
Mark Scrimenti 45:56
it grows with you. It can grow with you as your business grows, because your needs will change and evolve.
Damon Pistulka 46:01
Yeah, that’s awesome. Well, Mark, it’s been incredible talking to you again and catching you up on this, and just talking to you about breaking through these business plateaus, getting your feedback on how you’re helping clients learn a bit more about system and soul. That’s That’s cool to see what you’re doing there and how that integrates more the people, the really, the impact the all, with the performance of the organization and some of the other things we see across the board. But what’s the best way, if someone wants to reach out and talk to you, to get a hold of you? Thanks
Mark Scrimenti 46:34
and thanks for asking. You know, I think LinkedIn is best. You know you can find me just my name on LinkedIn, and I’ve got a website too. It’s vivid path consulting.com it’s, it needs an overhaul. So you know, I’m not, I’m not too proud of it right now. You can come see it. You can visit me there. But the best way to do it, I think, just connect with me on LinkedIn. And I’m, I’m open, so just reach out, connect, alright, send a connection request and I will respond.
Damon Pistulka 47:06
Awesome, awesome. Well, Mark, thanks so much for stopping by today, and as always, dropping your enlightening knowledge with us and really helping us understand more about you know how you’re helping people break through these plateaus in their business and really engage people better and and build better organizations.
Mark Scrimenti 47:25
Thanks, Damon, thanks thanks for having me. And I hope, I hope the listeners get something out of it. Yeah,
Damon Pistulka 47:29
yeah. Awesome. Well, I just want to say that Thanks for the comment. We had a couple comments in here. Thanks for dropping those comments. And those of you that came in late go back to the beginning, because Mark shared some really important golden nuggets from the beginning. Listen to the whole thing. We appreciate you, even if you did not drop a comment, because we know we’re out there, and I’m so grateful to have a guest like Mark. Today. We will be back again next week. Everyone hang out with me, Mark, when we’re offline and we’ll wrap up.
Mark Scrimenti 47:58
Awesome. Thanks. Tim, great talking.
