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Damon Pistulka, Kelly Robinson, Andrew Cross
Damon Pistulka 00:01
Hello, everybody, this is Damon Pistulka with Andrew Cross. We got a great guest for you today on the Business Roundtable. Kelly Robinson from Panna Knows.
Kelly Robinson 00:13
I’m doing great.
Damon Pistulka 00:16
Awesome. What’s that?
Kelly Robinson 00:20
Two of my favorite people.
Damon Pistulka 00:23
Wow, that’s cool. You know how to go from there. But we will. But we will. So it’s good to talk to you today. Kelly, because the people I don’t know. Paula knows now am I saying it right? Because I know some people say panna and I’ve heard you say pawna. So I was getting gassed. Yeah. wanted to make sure. And so recruiting you do recruiting you work for companies to find people in fill positions and you do in a variety of ways and we’ll talk about that, but I’ve got to believe that this has changed an awful lot and last six months. Yeah,
Kelly Robinson 01:06
yeah, it’s a very The landscape is very different and how companies are working with me right now are different. And then we’ll change again, right after we kind of figure out can actually get to the next normal. I don’t know. We keep going back to right, one step foot one step forward, and two back is what seems to be like Pennsylvania just took another but when we get there, I think things will be there. Very different. Yeah.
Damon Pistulka 01:36
Yeah, I think so. So what are the changes that you’ve seen? I mean, like, obviously, the remote stuff, but what what are the other things that you’re seeing that businesses are considering that they may not have been before?
So I actually have two clients that are focused on trying to acquire other Maybe acquires the wrong word trying to partner with other companies that are small companies or like consulting where they can work directly with founder or CEO
Kelly Robinson 02:12
to ask one more roll, cut out for leap work.
So that way they don’t have much risk and the other person that they bring in has skin in the game. Yeah. And they can also work with them on more of a fractional type of role. So it’s, it’s much easier, I think, for them, as you know, just giving autonomy to the experts here. And then they don’t have to hire a full time employee, which comes with a lot of things when you have to, you know, lay off and keep them engaged and keep them trained and going and I think people are a little nervous to do that right now.
Damon Pistulka 02:54
Yeah, yeah, that’s interesting. So, so that’s, that’s, you know, couldn’t be away from People, you know, the the gig economy or whatever the heck you want to contractors and using contractors, it could be an interesting way for people to scale for a while until they feel comfortable that the the economy and businesses are returning to normal. Like one,
one client that has 10 positions that he was going to bring in, like full time, and he’s totally changed it. Now he wants to almost basically 10 partners, I’ll say vendors, because that’s what it is. But it’s, you know, we all hate that word. It’s got to be a partner. And so we’re going out to find those people. So Isn’t that fascinating?
Damon Pistulka 03:40
Yeah, so you’re gonna help find, you know, people that actually have consulting companies to fill the roles rather than w two employees.
That’s right. So and so that’s a different way for me to recruit. Because usually we’re going at hiring employees, not companies, but now we’re vetting companies to do these roles, which is really actually really cool for us.
Damon Pistulka 04:01
Yeah, it is. That is it gives you some flexibility.
Yeah. More. And so it sounds like oh, well, of course that sounds like something that the company might do. But that’s a lot of different partnerships they’re creating. It’s not one or two that they’re outsourcing. It’s
Damon Pistulka 04:17
Oh, yeah. 10 is a lot.
That’s a trend. No, going in that direction. Kelly, you know,
I don’t know. But now, I’ve seen it a couple times. And I think it’s great. I think it makes sense. No, the job seeker. They have to really rebrand right or reinvent. Not everyone has a business owner, but maybe they figure out how to do consulting for someone else. It’s that’s got to be really difficult for them. But I, I see for companies that are really kind of on the forefront of this, they’re already thinking that way. Someone you know, some are not and some can’t. Somebody Just scale up with a lot of employees and they will. So it’s not everyone’s not going to be valuable in the workplace. People need to rebrand and kind of reinvent and they need.
Damon Pistulka 05:12
Andrew Cross 05:13
I was thinking that I got it. I think I talked to individual consultants are people and businesses themselves in and are out there as an employee, they have to treat themselves like a business and market themselves that way and protect their brand and, you know, it is just kind of it. I don’t think it’s wrong. I don’t think it’s in the long run. I think it makes them more effective. They’re, they’re learning more, they’re investing in equity, just like a business within themselves. Yeah.
Yeah. I spoke to someone actually this morning. And she said, you know, someone called me a couple weeks ago, and, you know, they had an opportunity for me to sort on a project and she’s working cruder and she said, I was going on vacation. So I said, I can’t, I can’t take the project. And she said, I should take that project. And I should have worked on vacation because I have to, I have to rethink now that the market is really hard. And it’s a market and no one’s hiring recruiters. So they’re going to be used, they’re not going to be hiring full time recruiters, that’s for sure. They’re going to be using companies like mine now. Yeah, an extra head they really don’t need right. So like, you know, I am the partnerships that that they’ll need, but, you know, she was kicking herself because she thought I don’t, I don’t know when this is going to come back around for me now. And I just lost that. And now I hope they’re going to call me back and ask me again. People need to be open, they need to be like, maybe I need to take this contract. Maybe it’s not going to be full time. Maybe I need to take this, you know part time maybe I need to look at a different position or different type of you know, career Yeah.
And you know, treat, treat your your gigs, your employers, it’s like if your business is to understand that your avatar or in, you know, and know what you can do for them that they can do. Yeah, because you know, you will get efficient and if you’re there and you know, you’re expendable. It’s just, it’s just happened. You know, like, you know, if you’re treating it like a business, then you don’t want to rely on just one customer. You know, the value of business goes down, right? You need a diverse customer.
Andrew Cross 07:39
Your plus or minus
four years are seeing that right. So now they’re like, well, there’s lots of options. Yeah, right. So they’re watching, right? They’re taking a look at who’s out there and they’re looking at their team and a lot of them we’ve talked about this before and the other roundtable is that you know, a lot of companies have taken this whole opportunity under the guise of COVID to let people go. So, you know, people are really under the microscope. And so they really need to do what they can do, right? They need to shut down to shine. This is not the time to think Oh, thank goodness I have my job. Yeah, they, you know, like you said, Andrew, like, make it like it’s their own right. Yeah, networking is really important for job seekers, how to build your brand and your connections and be out there. And you’ve got to know who to talk to.
Damon Pistulka 08:39
Different World and so I hope I don’t make it sound like dismal and complete. No, no, that’s it. It’s not dismal. It’s you said one thing. People need flexibility in it. I mean, there’s, well let’s look at look at IRA I mean, Ira Bowman, we you know, he he was various data a salesperson, their company went through some changes. He’s not anymore. He was flexible, decided, you know, decided he was gonna do some something different, but he had prepared for that by the networking that he had done and the other relationships that he had built to be able to move on to something differently when when the opportunity was was presented, and and you know, it’s the the W two is not a license to slack off by any means. Or it’s just you’re no more that’s no more permanent than I don’t know what the wind real mean. It’s just you just can’t You can’t rely on that are very much
Yeah, well, even other, even under good intentions, you know, companies the whole market is evolving so fast. And you know, you you you know when you started the job and if you do it, you can even do it very well. But things get automated things get redundant. You know And, and if that’s your one employer, you’re in a bad spot, you know, and I feel for those people, but you know, diversify, you know, evolve, diversify your skillsets diversify your customer base, treat it like a business, protect your brand. And all those, you know, basic principles that we’re, we’re working with, you know, you’re putting out you’re signing in saying for hire, you know. So if that’s the one thing I think you forget to is, even if you are working with one client, which is a job, you know, a person who’s going to stay in business for a long time has to dedicate at least 20% of their effort and resources to sales and marketing, which is, in this case, finding the next gig. Yeah, that’s, I think that’s a big trip up for folks that they just are spending giving 100% of their time.
Andrew Cross 10:56
You just can’t do that anymore.
Kelly Robinson 10:59
It’s all about
I think something that’s really important actually came from just a thought that came from Irish show the other night that I did. Someone messaged me and said, I really could use some coaching some career coaching. And I introduced her to Curtis Wright, our friend Curtis. So yeah, it’s not what I’m happy to help her but I’ve got someone that’s an expert so and she said, I’m really intimidated because I don’t have a college degree. And I was like, Oh, she didn’t know who she was talking to, because I don’t either, but I was like, okay, so I said, Listen, you can’t be intimidated. It’s this, whatever the story is in your head. And this is true for this is like a, you know, a pep talk a motivation thing, but it’s really true. Whatever the story is that you’ve been telling yourself, is what’s going to happen, right? You let people tell you so if you think I can’t do this, you can’t write if you think I can, I’m gonna make it work like IRA Yeah, right like us, we all started our own businesses like, we figure it out. It’s like, you’ve got to have this. You have to have the confidence, take some time and think about it, and rebrand yourself, because you can do it. Yeah. You’re telling yourself but that’s, that’s it? That’s what’s gonna happen.
Yeah. And also, you know, they may have even convinced themselves that they haven’t they’ve been doing it. And now that you visible that, not because I didn’t have a degree or something like that, but what you’ve been doing this, you have a degree and that experience that trial and error. Yeah, you know, all the things that you bring to the table, so, and business owners. I mean, big companies care, but business owners care about people who do. Yeah, yeah, that’s all they really care about. At the end of the day, yeah. convey that.
Damon Pistulka 12:48
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and honestly, there is a I don’t know it’s probably close to the majority of the business owners we work with do not have degree. You know, they don’t have degrees.
Kelly Robinson 13:01
Yeah, no, they got they they’re not both people. There are people who went to work and built a business and learned that it all a lot of what they learned is trial and error and is here. Yeah. So for us, it’s very difficult to get that to transfer. Yeah. To to, you know, it’s difficult to transition, but it is it. I don’t know, majority, almost 60 70% of the businesses we deal with are in that situation. And well, I mean, a lot of business owners, I’ll get this. I’ve had this several times, they’ll say, Well, I started this business because no one would hire me. Yeah. Yeah, I needed I needed a job. I was the only one have a daughter.
Damon Pistulka 13:39
Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry.
No, I just entrepreneurs are interesting. They’re just it’s just, it’s got to be a mix of like, someone who like want, you know, I hate to say this, but like dumb enough to think that they can just, they can make it happen, right? Because there’s a little there’s the risk. They’re like, whatever. But you know, streetsmart, right, they understand how to navigate. They have to be constantly teaching themselves like so they have to be reading, engaging. I mean, it’s just the it’s a really neat person that makes it work. Right. It’s it’s unique. It’s not forever. Oh, no, totally.
Damon Pistulka 14:23
Not at all. Not at all there, there definitely are those that are better able to do it, you know, and, and, and others that that could but you know, can’t get their mind passed. A lot of people can’t get the wind. And the biggest thing that I always, always hear that people talk about being an entrepreneur going into business for themselves is they all want to make up my own schedule. Here. your schedule is done. It’s made up in your work in your work and if you’re sleeping, or thinking about dreaming about it, if you wake up.
Andrew Cross 14:57
If that’s why you’re thinking about starting a business Yeah, keep your job
Kelly Robinson 15:04
sleeping. You’re not working not you’re not an entrepreneur. So,
yeah, well, differences, there are real differences. You know, if you’re, if you’re working for taking a paycheck, you go home and you don’t think about work. Nor in your business owner, it’s 24. Yeah, I mean, you made it. You may be relaxing, but you still thinking about it? Yeah.
I have to say, and you are sure you both because it’s kind of in our blood to work like we do. When I was working for someone for very long time, I gave my heart and soul and I thought I gave everything I had, like, I felt like at the end of the day, I left everything in that laptop, but I gave it all I gave it my all. Now starting my own company. I’m like, how do I even have how I have power? I didn’t know I have. Yeah, like you do. You work. You do work harder for yourself. Yeah. You can work really, really hard for someone else to Yes, yeah, it’s different.
Damon Pistulka 16:06
That’s, that’s, that’s, yeah, you don’t know what you’ve got until you have to put to do it. You know, I guess I think there’s more in us as we as it goes part of that. The other thing, though, that I see a lot of business owners now, and it’s funny, because I’ve just run into a few of our clients that have this challenge is that because we work the way we do in business, we assume that our team and the people around us will do you know, at least the executive teams and these companies will do that. And that’s not the case. That’s not the case at all. And, and when we, when we talk about things like that, and about specifically in recruiting, they really need to be able to communicate to someone like yourself when you’re recruiting for especially in an executive position that we need someone that’s going to act like they own this. Yeah, there’s much difference. There’s a drastic world difference between an employee and someone owns it? And I can’t tell you I think we’ve got over the years, I’ve had many clients that have that frustration, because because I pay somebody a lot of money, they should act like they own it. And that’s that that correlation is not there, because it’s not innate to those people.
It’s not going to happen. And I have, you know, it’s the clients that want everyone to be drinking the Kool Aid. it you know, and that doesn’t mean you know, I just, I just had a fire mine like that, you know, people aren’t gonna drink your Kool Aid, you know, they just want to know their long story. We’ll talk offline, but it’s not gonna work always right. And people that will be that will work hard and have good intention, but they’re never going to work like it’s their own company and thrown. Yeah,
Damon Pistulka 17:50
yeah. Yeah, that’s for sure. That’s
not to figure out how people are how they forwarded. So And then work with them. When I work with with my clients like what are you looking for from me? What kind of payment What do you want? How do you want to work the payment solution? Great that works for you. So that will incent you to work with me. Yeah, that’s what we’ll do. I did the same thing for my team. How do you want to work? What do you want to get paid? Great. Is that gonna make you work hard? Awesome. I’m never going to nickel and dime because if people if you want people to work hard, you give them what they want. They’re going to do like, you know, hopefully,
Damon Pistulka 18:36
yeah, I mean, at least you set the expectation. Listen, I’ve met your expectations now meet mine. here with you where you’re at. It’s it’s a much easier way to go in and, and you see this in there’s the people that try to nickel and dime and lowball employees. I mean, they’re all the myriad of problems you run in with that run into with that’s an earned or not worth it.
Kelly Robinson 18:57
You get what you pay for.
Damon Pistulka 18:58
Andrew Cross 19:00
too. And it’s not even about just what you’re paying them, you know, it’s Do they have the right tools they need to do their job and they care a lot about just that, you know, that stupid thing doesn’t work this computer, you know it out, you know, you can’t expect them to care about it if you can’t even you know, give them the stuff that so that they can be successful when, and then identifying what that what success is, right? Yeah, I don’t know, the business. I’ve gone into the best managers, you know, really just check in because they’re their leads their leaders and our leadership teams are brought in. You know, they’re running it, you know, they do things and make decisions, you know, that they don’t have to go up to the owner every single time to do that, or it’s made, any owner checks in, and they have their own feedback loop, you know, for success. Those are great. It’s really great to see that but it’s rare.
Now, I’ve always said I don’t want to all through hiring when I started to really learn what kind of I was in the last 10 years, I would hire people and I would say, Listen, I’m available to you 24 seven, because I work all the time. But do I want to follow up with you? No. Do I want to send an email and have to come after? You know, do I want to ask you if you did your job today? No. All I want to do is support I want to give you autonomy and support you, how can I support you? And I want you to know when you need to ask for help. Come and ask and I will be there don’t just try to do something, you know, let me support you. But I, I I’m the same. I let my team work autonomously. I really don’t. I don’t want to have to hold their hand or micromanage like it’s a no I hire adults. I always say yeah, yeah, you hire the right people. You’re you’re golden.
Damon Pistulka 20:49
Yeah. Oh, yeah. That’s, that’s, that’s the key. And then that’s the other thing that I think now though, it really allows, you know, the fact that there are so many people unemployed, it allows you to To be a little more selective, you know, last year going into the fall, hiring was a nightmare. Yeah. And at least at least in the companies that we were associated with what it’s got to be, you’ve got to have a selection of more talent now, don’t you?
Yeah. Oh, yeah. But so there’s but there’s more work with that. Right. So there’s more. And I’m not a big word, my company and I just personally don’t believe and you post a job and you sit around and you wait, right? We go up, like we’re hunters. But you do always post a job because you never know who’s going to apply. But if you post a job now, oh, you better get ready. So one of my biggest fears is that companies are going to start thinking we’ll just do this ourselves. And then guess what, it becomes a full time job, and they’re not actually doing their jobs. They’re doing all they’re doing is hiring which that’s why companies like you know, that’s why I’m in business.
Damon Pistulka 22:01
Yeah, so I mean, this just give for an example, if you posted a post last fall, you would have got X amount of resumes, probably. And then now you do it. What would What are you guessing?
Oh, um, I mean, I get I get applicants every day on the things that I have posted on my website. And I don’t have everything out there because I’m afraid to get too much. But I probably get right now, and I’m a teeny little company and probably five times more than I used to get. And I think it’s just as people will start rolling off on employment, I think it’s going to get exponentially like, so I know. Some of the big companies like there’s a big health system around here. And when we went through 2008, they were getting like 15,000 applications a month or something like that. I mean, it was insane. So I I’m sure they’re scary. rocketing right now too. But I also think with the unemployment and all the benefits that people are offered, it’s we’re probably not seeing yet what we’re going to be seeing. Yeah,
Damon Pistulka 23:10
yeah. Yeah. That’s interesting. Because you’re right. I mean, that runs out in the later this month. And I’m sure there’s people that are going to be, you know, frantically searching. Yep. So interesting. So if you were if you’re in the job market today, what the heck would you do?
Kelly Robinson 23:31
Oh, my gosh, I would find I would figure out whatever my target was
Damon Pistulka 23:36
the target employer? Yeah.
Yeah. Like the the job I need to figure out what you know, the target job for me and then and then the target employer as far as who has those jobs, and then the pin up now. I’ve got to network like so I’ve got to get to those companies and I have to start interacting. Yeah. One of my friends is is a corporate recruiter at a big a big company. I won’t, I won’t say which one. But, you know, she’s she said, I’ve got this sheet she just she came in to visit me here at the beach a couple days ago. And she said at this, this applicant that’s asking me to connect to another recruiter and I said, Oh, no, because she’s like, what do I, what do I do with this person? Like, I don’t want to put the other recruiter in a bad position to say you have to call this person. And I said, I know. But how great is it that they’re reaching out? You have to give them the opportunity? Because I that’s like, you know that the old school was like, Oh my gosh, recruiters always think like, Oh, that’s so much extra work. That’s why there’s so many bad recruiters out there. Yeah. I said to her, no, introduce the person. You’re not standing up for the person. You’re just saying, Let me introduce you. Like that. should be doing that all the time. Doesn’t work. And sometimes you find I’ve hired people that way. Like you just because you know, everyone says you have to apply for the job like you have to apply for the job, but really try to get to someone else first. Yeah, you can find diamonds in the rough that you didn’t you wouldn’t have found through an applicant, maybe if someone hadn’t highlighted them or brought them to your attention. Yeah. Did you guys see what
Kelly Robinson 25:24
did you guys see what Airbnb did?
Damon Pistulka 25:27
No. Oh, yeah, the webpage that they put together for their people highlighting them was phenomenal. Yeah, I did see that. Now. He said that. I think you posted something about I didn’t,
I did, because I get a news, this recruiting newsletter that I like to read. And I got the article that they put all everyone that they had to lay off on a website with their skill sets connected to their LinkedIn profile, and said, these guys are great because and here’s what they do, and hire them. I mean, that’s phenomenal.
Damon Pistulka 25:58
That’s freaking awesome. I’m telling you. Just freakin nobody feels good about laying people off and Lord knows I’ve had to do enough of that in my life. And and no, but they come come full circle like that and help them find something else. That’s the way to do it right.
Yeah, I saw you know, I saw probably about six months ago wayfair had a huge layoff. Yep. And, and I got someone emailed me an Excel spreadsheet was like Google doc or whatever. And they said, here’s all the weight wayfair the weight ariens they call them or something, right? They put together a list and circulated it to say here called people. Yeah. It doesn’t say anything, but it’s a great, really great thing to do. I mean,
Damon Pistulka 26:47
it’s a very little bit of work on the employers and you know, they’re they’re simply posting some stuff, putting a few things together, somebody puts a few hours in it, who cares? I mean, this is the these are people’s lives. You think of the difference in their opinion towards that company? Mm hmm. And this is all when this is done, you know, at least they tried to help at least they put my name on that HR person ever. They did talk to somebody, for me, whatever it is. That’s a huge thing. When you talk about now, the era of social media and the brands we’re trying to build and what we’re trying to do, and, you know, 1010 employees on Glassdoor can can bitch at Vich about your company all day? Or you can get one employee that was really happy that even though they got laid off, they found another great job.
Kelly Robinson 27:38
Andrew Cross 27:41
Damon Pistulka 27:43
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that’s cool. You know, I think you’re right, though, in the networking, and the other thing is someone I don’t even know who that was talking about the other day. You know, IRAs, amazingly, with this project, help you grow. Man. He knows that inside now. We were talking about And this morning about something else. And he was mentioning, he just knows that but you know him in the networking and how you do that is really interesting in that it’s really important as a job seeker, I would think to be able to go Who do I know in that company or in that industry so I can get more familiar with it. So that if I get in front of the right person, they can see that I actually care enough to know about the company or the industry to talk more intelligently about it to
Kelly Robinson 28:30
Damon Pistulka 28:31
Andrew Cross 28:33
And understanding that when you’re under when you do that much work and understand the client, or understand that, you know, the position at what they need, it’s because it is, I mean, yeah, differentiating is it’s not about you. It’s about them. Taking Yeah. divert does very well. Yeah.
Damon Pistulka 28:53
Yeah. And this is what we were talking about the other day in the roundtable, though, when you’re on there, Kelly Nolan, I think of it. We were talking about how the best candidates differentiate themselves. And it’s it’s because they know your company, they know your challenges they know. And they they show you that they know them and how they relate to them and how they solve those problems. Yeah,
I mean, I’ve sat in front of, you know, I’ve had interviews to hire for my company. And and you know, I’ll say, do you have any questions? And they’re questions like, well, how long have you been here? Like, these are simple. These are easy things. It’s like, it’s like the note in your in the direct message on LinkedIn that says, Where do you live? It’s like, Yeah. Right. So these are bad questions, people. They’re bad questions. Yeah. Yeah, we’re in front of people and they love your background. You went from here to here and they’re just, there’s no. makes a difference.
Damon Pistulka 29:52
Yeah, it certainly does. It certainly does. Well, Kelly, if there’s one piece of advice you want to leave everyone with before we leave To conclude here, what would that be?
And start telling yourself the story of whatever it is that you want to do. And just keep telling yourself that and you’ll and it will, it will come together. Yeah, visualization, focus, gratitude, all these things, they come together and they work but I’m telling you, whatever stories in your head, that’s what’s gonna happen in your life.
Damon Pistulka 30:26
Oh, man, that’s so that’s so true. And that can be another 10 hours of topics. It just gets my mind running because I was talking to somebody about that because I am go there because it is it is so important to do that. And like you said earlier in the conversation, if you think you can’t, you can do you think you can? You will. And that’s, that’s real important. But thanks a lot for stopping by today. Kelly, it’s a pleasure to get to talk to you talk a little bit on the website.
Yeah, yup. If you guys want to catch up with Kelly, go ahead. Give your website and your Yeah,
it’s www dot pawna notes pa n mn at sorry, n a n.
Kelly Robinson 31:11
And you can connect with me on LinkedIn.
Damon Pistulka 31:14
Yep. Yeah. And I will have Kelly’s information in the in the video comments on YouTube and Facebook eventually might take me a couple days. So it’s not there right away, reached out to me, but, but you can connect with them on LinkedIn and those other ways as well. But thanks a lot for being with us here today. Andrew, any final thoughts?
Andrew Cross 31:37
No. Thanks, Kelly. Be safe. Have a great fourth. Yeah. Enjoy.
Kelly Robinson 31:45
Thank you, guys.
Damon Pistulka 31:47
Bye for now.