Taking the Guesswork out of Business Growth

In this The Faces of Business episode, Jay Tinkler, Co-Founder, Remarkably, dives into “Taking the Guesswork Out of Business Growth.” sharing his insights on building trust and fostering community-driven growth strategies.

In this The Faces of Business episode, Jay Tinkler, Co-Founder, Remarkably, dives into “Taking the Guesswork Out of Business Growth.” sharing his insights on building trust and fostering community-driven growth strategies.

Jay is a seasoned leader with a diverse background in sales, web marketing, and trust-building in business relationships. At Remarkably, he has revolutionized the way businesses approach growth, using data-driven insights to help numerous organizations achieve sustainable success. His work with Convoy Collective further demonstrates his commitment to fostering long-term profitable partnerships.

Damon is pleased to host Jay on his show. He starts the discussion by asking about the guest’s journey into their current role.

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Jay recounts his unconventional approach to marketing and business growth, rooted in his 11-year experience running a web company focused on building high-performing, conversion-optimized websites. His core philosophy revolves around understanding that there is a human at the other end of any business interaction. By applying behavioral science to communicate warmly and build trust both at the versatile level and in long-term partnerships, Jay believes businesses can improve conversions and generate growth.

Damon, curious, asks Jay to share key insights on building customer advocacy.

Jay says trust comprises two main components: competence and warmth of intention. While competence involves reliability and expertise, warmth of intention refers to showing genuine care for clients. Jay argues that demonstrating care is crucial, as people are more likely to forgive lapses in competence if they feel valued.

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Conversely, high competence without perceived care does not build confidence.

Jay’s concept of “warmth of intention” impresses Damon. He is eager to explore building trust and effective advocacy further.

Interestingly, Jay reveals that small business owners often see the concept of “warmth of intention” as too abstract or “fluffy” when they are focused on the immediate needs of running their business. However, he argues that breaking down this concept into specific, actionable behaviors can drive growth. He suggests that businesses should go beyond their purpose, mission, and values, which are often self-centered and develop an “intention statement” that reflects genuine care for their customers.

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Damon admires the concept and asks Jay to provide an example of a company that effectively incorporates the warmth of intention.

Jay presents Nike and Red Bull as examples that create community-centric initiatives to demonstrate their care and build trust. Both Nike, through its Nike Run Club, and Red Bull, with extreme sports events, show they believe in more than just selling products. Jay then gives a small business example of a client working with schools to engage students in science.

Damon agrees that Jay’s example is highly applicable to many small businesses and industries.

The guest discusses how to create strategies that consistently demonstrate care for customers. He shares a personal experience of having his veranda redone, where a contractor made a lasting impression by returning three months later with a complimentary tin of decking oil for touch-ups. This small, thoughtful gesture transformed an ordinary job into a remarkable one, making Jay an advocate for the contractor. Such behaviors can be systematized within a business’s strategy, such as using a CRM to schedule follow-up actions, ensuring consistent customer care, and turning customers into loyal advocates.

Damon praises Jay’s story as a creative and impactful example. He invites Jay to talk a bit about other instances where seemingly small efforts resulted in remarkable experiences for customers.

Jay outlines a framework for creating remarkable moments, emphasizing four key elements: personalized, unexpected, relevant, and emotion-driven (PURE). He shares an example of a local coffee shop that used a surprise teddy bear cookie under the lid and an Australian pillow company, Koala, playing “Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star” when opening their product box. Despite the pillow not being suitable, the exceptional return process, including a personal phone call and immediate refund, turned Jay into an advocate for the company.

Damon asks Jay about the key metrics they use to evaluate the effectiveness of these moments, such as changes in average order size, higher conversion rates, or increased customer knowledge.

Jay explains that while word of mouth is a great cost-effective way to grow a business, it’s challenging to measure its impact directly. However, digital tools like affiliate links can help track advocacy. He advises asking customers how they heard about the business. This simple question often reveals that many customers learn about the business through recommendations, whether through social media, podcasts, or other channels.

Moreover, Jay says that advocacy accelerates the sales process, reducing costs associated with proposals and acquisition. He suggests avoiding terms like “feedback” and instead asking for advice, which positions clients as partners rather than just customers. Understanding both macro and micro influences on customer motivation, such as general frustrations like disliking clothes shopping or individual preferences, is crucial.

Agreeing with the guest, Damon discusses the pitfalls of relying solely on paid advertising without cultivating brand advocacy. He mentions how the world has shifted, with platforms like Google and Facebook becoming saturated with ads, leading to increased costs and diminishing returns, especially during fluctuations in demand like those seen during the COVID-19 pandemic.

As the show reaches its conclusion, Jay talks about the aspect of value alignment. He calls business relationships friendships and believes advocating offers a shift from transactional interactions to genuine care and support for customers’ goals. Jay suggests that by effectively conveying care and support to the audience, businesses can organically reach their success.

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48:59
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
great, jay, company, business, advocacy, build, customer, intention, damon, starts, pillow, care, trust, creating, level, warmth, bit, generate, turn, ads
SPEAKERS
Damon Pistulka, Jay Tinkler

Damon Pistulka 00:01
All right, everyone, welcome once again the faces of business. I am your host, Damon pistulka, and I am so excited for our guest today, because we’re going to be talking about taking the guesswork out of business growth with Jay tanklers, thanks so much for being here, Jay. Jay from remarkably, we’re going to talk about remarkably, too. Thanks for being here today.

Jay Tinkler 00:24
Amazing to be here. Damon, thanks for having me on.

Damon Pistulka 00:26
Yes, yes. Well, Jay, I always like it when I can get people on here from Australia, because it’s easy for us. It’s early in the morning for you, it’s in the afternoon for me, and you’re fresh and ready to go.

Jay Tinkler 00:40
Let’s do it. Let’s do it. Yeah, I’m I’m pumped. Good,

Damon Pistulka 00:44
good, good. Well, we always like to start out as we do this kind of understand your journey into getting into what you’re doing today and helping people think about marketing and growth and all the other thing that you’re doing. So tell us a little bit about your history and how you got here,

Jay Tinkler 01:00
yeah, listen, I probably approached sort of marketing and, you know, everything around how we grow businesses from a probably an unconventional way my background, we, I ran a web company for about 11 years, And that was mainly around sort of building high performing websites that are able to convert so it was a lot of on site optimization, that kind of thing. And the thing that we’re really focused on was, how do we actually ensure that the companies and the clients that we work with understand, excuse me, understand that at the other end of the line there’s still a human right, yeah, and in doing so, what that would look like is how we communicating, how we showing up, how we using things like behavioral science and different things to to be able to communicate with another human being in a in a warm way. And really just at the deep core of that was this idea that if we can accelerate trust, if we can improve the way in which we build trust, not only at a sort of a long term partnership kind of way, which is always beautiful and great, but also at that transactional level, as sort of how we are actually, in a short period of time, able to generate trust. Then obviously the role and effect to that is going to be, you know, in the web game, is going to be conversion and engagement and that kind of thing. But at a bigger level, it’s going to be, it’s going to be business growth. So speed forward a whole lot of years, we’re now in a position where we’ve really gone and interviewed and spent time with people around the world on what does it take to build a trusted business and a trusted brand? And in doing so, started to unpick, sort of got it, got out of the clouds a little bit and came down to the ground level about what are the behaviors, what’s the data, what’s the things that we need to be doing at a day to day level to build a trusted brand. Now let me freestyle a little bit with you here, Damon, and just say the interesting thing is, no business owner wakes up in the middle of the night stressed about the trust in their business, right? It is a bit of a Trojan horse. We know we need it, but it’s not the thing that keeps us awake at night. But what’s the thing that does keep us awake at night is, how do you build a business that people feel compelled to talk about? How do we get the advocacy out there? And really at the core of that is trust, right? So we started focusing on that question, what does it take to build a business that people feel compelled to talk about, and that becomes this organic, if we can switch that on and accelerate that and amplify that. What that plays out is this beautiful opportunity to cut costs in normal advertising and marketing and grow business in a more organic way. Yeah,

Damon Pistulka 04:15
well, that’s so true. It’s because when you when you understand how to build that advocacy. You just went from I’ve got my my salespeople to I’ve got all these salespeople that are out there in the world,

Jay Tinkler 04:28
absolutely, absolutely, yeah. So

Damon Pistulka 04:32
as you’re down that journey trying to figure out what it takes to build that advocacy, what was one of the things that really stood out to you.

Jay Tinkler 04:44
Do I have to limit it to one? Can I No, no, you can go

Damon Pistulka 04:47
down the road three, whatever you think, to make sure we hit a few of those really important ones. Okay,

Jay Tinkler 04:54
so let’s start with the thing that we always talk about when it comes to small business in particular, which. Word of mouth, right is, how do I sort of generate more word of mouth? How do I, which is really what we’re talking about when we’re talking about advocacy, it’s we’re talking about building brand and building a level of opportunity for a maybe a client or a prospect, to be able to go out there and talk about us, the first thing and at the core of everything we do. And one of the things that I’ll chew your ear off, if you let me, is around this topic of trust. Okay? And right from when we’re at school through to business school and whatnot, we’re taught that we need to talk about our features and benefits, and we need to talk about the things that we do and how reliable we are, and all of this kind of stuff, right? But when you start to break down what trust looks like, the first thing that comes out of that is you realize that it’s made up of two things. It’s definitely that competence piece, which is your reliability, how we show up, how doing the things that we do, that we’re good enough, all of the things that we battle with as business owners every day. And the second part, which often gets missed is this ability to successfully show another human being that we care about them. And this is what we call your warmth of intention, your ability to successfully communicate to another human being that we care about. Now, this is the emotional piece, and it’s where everyone feels like they get off the bus a little bit. But what the interesting thing about that is, if you think about how we all trust other people, whether it be a friend or it starts with that. So it starts with, does this people mean me harm, or does this person care about me? And then I then go and check their competence. So if you think about, let’s go the the typical example of a used car salesperson. If you walk into a used car sales lot, you the first thing you think about is, is this person trying to put a deal on me, or is this person really caring about whether I’m going to get the right car? And at that point, do we then think about whether they’re good enough to talk to us about this car, or they’ve been knowledgeable of that, those kind of things, right? The interesting thing that happens that if we don’t focus on that, on our warmth of intention, first, is, I will forgive you for lack of competence. So we’ve all had clients that forgive us for things coming late because we they know that the long term that they we care about them, will forgive you for lack of competence, if we know that there’s warmth of intention, but the other way around, you can be as competent as you like, but if I don’t feel like you care about me, I don’t forgive you for that. Wow. So the problem being is that we need to start with that warmth of intention and build strategy. So I’ll pause there. I’m happy to sort of go on from there. Damon,

Damon Pistulka 08:10
I’ve got a ton of questions around this. I’m writing as fast as I can, because this is good stuff. So yes, that’s awesome. It’s awesome. You’re talking about this because it is we. We talk about this often. We don’t talk about the competent, the warmth of intention, which I really want to dive into this a little bit, because the everyone, as you said, is taught about features, benefits, why we’re high quality, whatever you want to talk about, all those things. And it’s awesome that you bring up. We have to show them that we really care first,

Jay Tinkler 08:51
absolutely, absolutely. And I think what we find I speak about this a lot, right? So I love this topic of trust. However, when you drop it down into small business land, we often find the response is, hey, I love it. I love what you’re saying. Jay, you know, warmth of intention is great, but I’m trying to feed my family here, and I’m trying to build a business here. I’ve got employees that I get it that’s it feels fluffy, but once you start to drop it down into the behaviors that drive it, that’s when the growth starts to turn on. So can I dive into that a little bit? Damon, yes, exactly. I was going to ask you to Yeah, okay, so let’s start with the warmth of intention, right? So if you state, if you take that at a brand level or a growth level, the first thing that sort of starts to come up is, okay, we’ve got our purpose and our mission and our values. We all sort of are told to focus on those. But if we you. Then shift that to going, they’re very much about us, the purpose, the mission, the values, are very much about us, and how we feel and what we want to project to the world, and all that kind of great, important, all of that kind of thing. But where’s the intention right at a brand level? So if we shift that to brand level, that looks like an intention statement in our in our language, and what that means is you take something like a purpose. We’re here to, I think we’ve talked about construction. We’re here to build, bring better living to the over 60 age group or something like that, right? Yeah, I’m sort of freestyling here a little bit, but the second part is the so that, what’s the so that that comes after that, and the so that becomes the peace that drives the intention, so that the older generation can spend more time with their families, right? So that’s so that piece becomes the intention, the care piece that says we care about the older generation spending more time with their families. And that’s where we start to go. Okay, at a brand level, let’s start focusing on that. So that might mean that every building that we do, we put special intercoms in so that they can have live stream with their their families, or it starts to open up the eyes to greater areas to be able to communicate it at a brand level, that we care about our customers. And through doing that, we start to have that beautiful share value moment. And I feel at a brand level that you care as as a as a company, right?

Damon Pistulka 11:59
Yeah. Well, and it’s incredible when you can do that. So name a company that you think does that. So we have an example.

Jay Tinkler 12:11
Well, the interesting thing is, what this looks like at big, big business is it’s, it’s, it’s where they start creating community. So let’s go and I always use this as an example, but I always pause, because everyone pronounces it differently. Let’s say Nike. Is it Nike? Nike, however you want to Yeah. So Nike went and created Nike Run Club, right? So Nike Run Club doesn’t really generate a lot of income for the company, but what it does create is a level of care for their community, where they are believing in something greater than just selling shoes. Mm, hmm, right. You look at someone like Red Bull and what they do with extreme games and different things like that, they’re stepping into a space of care and and community to create the horizontal and the dwell around their brand and in therefore communicating their level of care for for that organization, can I drop it down into small business for you a little bit? Damon, that would be great. So at a small business level, we’ve got a client that does a lot of sort of work in in schools. So they go in and do science, sort of incursions and these kind of things in schools. You know, she engaged kids in the in the in the mystery of science, etc, etc. Now, when we spent some time going and chatting with their clients. Basically what opened up was the fact that they’d love to be doing more science stuff. They love what they do as a company. They think that they’re amazing, but often it’s out of reach from a budget perspective, and so that then said, okay, great, totally understand how that that that’s so starts with deep listening, right? Starts with, let’s get real deep understanding of our customer. And then, and the, the other thing that sort of stood out was that at an when the curriculum in schools changes a lot, or when science generally is changing a lot, you know, a lot of robotics and different things are changing. Thing. So it’s hard for teachers to keep up and still be doing there. So all these little pieces of understanding, starting with a good level of communication, setting up the the path of two way communication with their clients, and then stepping into going, Okay, how do we show you we care? So this company started a small product. It’s not a product that probably will be a will take over the world, but it’s a beautiful little product that shows schools that they care about making consistent on creating consistent education in schools around science that they can it’s an on demand product that they can jump in and create, and the feedback that we’ve got from that, and the level of growth that we’ve got out of just that small product, because of the engagement that happens into bigger products that come off the back of that has been quite surprising, quite surprising, as far as how the engagement has gone purely because of the fact that we they listened, they spent the time, got the data as to what they actually want, and then showed up about with purpose and intention, about caring about their customer, rather than just throwing what they thought that they needed at them.

Damon Pistulka 16:32
Yes, alright, and on that. That’s that’s a great example, though I mean it when you look at it that applies to so many different small businesses, really and industries and things, because getting to know your customer really well is beneficial for everyone and understanding them well enough to know that listen, you may not want the most premium, but you could use this tool right here that almost everybody in what you’re doing would really enjoy to have, and you may even give it away, but the benefits by showing you care, you’re going to get a lot more business growth because of The things that are going to happen beyond that, because you’re going to become very familiar as someone who cares and can help them more, absolutely,

Jay Tinkler 17:29
absolutely, yeah. And then you start to sort of say, okay, Jay, how do you start creating strategy, you know? How do you start and the behaviors then become? How do you be? How do you show your customer that you care about them? How do you what are the behaviors that you’re showing and then putting either a product or a system around that to allow that to be consistent within your organization. The example I give a lot is we, we recently had our, it’s a little while ago now, but we had our veranda redone. You know, we had our and basically it was, we live up on a mountain, so it gets weathered very easily, that kind of thing. And we had it re oiled, we had the and resurfaced. Now, when I went out looking for someone, I didn’t have someone that was top of mind for doing that kind of job. So went to the local newspaper and looked up, as we do in the classified section, and tried to find the someone. We had one guy come out, and it was too expensive, and the second guy came out, he was about the right price. He said he can do it great. Timing wise, worked since he came in and he did the job, and he did a good job. It was, it was fine. It was nothing. I wouldn’t say remarkable about it, but it was, it was an okay job. And he left everything worked seamlessly. It was, it was, it was fine. The thing that made it remarkable, though, is that three months later, he knocked on the door and he said, Hey, Jay, I’ve been thinking about your veranda, and probably now there’s probably going to be a little bit of touching up that needs to happen. So I thought I’d drop you around a tin of Decking Oil, just so that you can touch it up. Now, in that moment, he’s probably planned it. He’s probably budgeted that little tin of Decking Oil into the job and all of that kind of thing. But in that moment, he’s got me now talking about him all over town, right? Yes. You’ve got it. You’ve got like because he showed in a moment, that he cared beyond the job, and he now has got me in as an advocate. Now the beauty is, if you drop that down into strategy, is that his CRM can tell him that three months after every job, he gets a little alert that he has to go and knock on that door with it with he’s probably got a box of Decking Oil sitting in the back of his truck, right? Yeah, yeah to say. And in each one, it will be a remarkable moment for that person. But for him, it doesn’t have to be so ad hoc or like it can be planned.

Damon Pistulka 20:43
Yeah, it can be genuine, but systematic,

Jay Tinkler 20:47
absolutely, absolutely. And that’s a

Damon Pistulka 20:50
great example, I think, you know, we get so caught up in the whiz bang or other things, and you look at a simple act like that, which is very simple, as you said, all the way from A to Z. But the impact, the impact on it, you can do that in in so many different industries, so many different it just is incredible. And the fact that you brought up your CRM can remind you it’s time to go do it, and you can just do it and get it done. And you made that impact, and that will be really good marketing for you.

21:40
Yes, yes. Real

Damon Pistulka 21:43
good. That’s awesome. You have to, I mean, what are some of the so that’s kind of a creative way. That’s a That’s a great story around this. What are some of the most interesting things you’ve seen people do that really created that remarkable experience, but it wasn’t that remarkable of an effort, and it wasn’t you, you just go, huh? That’s, it’s not, that’s a good idea. I would have never thought of. It wasn’t that big a deal, but it made a really big impact.

Jay Tinkler 22:21
Uh, uh, listen, I like to go small on these, because there’s so many really big examples, but they feel out of reach to a lot of small businesses. As to, yeah, you know, it’s easy to talk in silly budgets when people have silly budgets, right? Yeah,

Damon Pistulka 22:40
no, I like, I totally like the the thing, like, you said, Listen, it’s a five, $5 can of whatever that they drop off, and it’s, it makes a huge impact. Those are the best kind. And that’s, I’m hoping you’re going to share some of those, because, yeah, I’ve

Jay Tinkler 22:55
got a, I’ve got a, I’ve got a, let me just say that. Let me give you a quick framework first, right? So when we think about remarkable moments, we break it down into four key areas. It spells the word pure, P, u, r, e, the first is personalized. What are you doing to make that individual feel like you care about them, rather than it being something that feels like everyone got a Christmas hamper, if that makes sense, right? Unexpected. It needs to have a level of unexpected about it. Which is, which is speaks for itself. Relevant. How do you make it relevant to that individual? What? What? What does it mean for them? And the last is, it needs to generate some sort of emotion. Is it a wow emotion? Is it a some sort of and so these pure moments that people create don’t have to be big, as you say, they don’t have to be they can be small. Can feel really mundane in sort of and almost to them, can feel like, Oh, I didn’t expect that to be such an amazing thing. I’ve got a couple of examples. I’ll start with a very basic one, which is my local coffee shop. You know, they I turn up, I order a coffee and, under the lid, they put two lids on top. And under the first lid they put a little teddy bear cookie that I discover later on, when I when I yeah, just that little moment of of Wow. Those kind of things are great, and they very easy to systemize, and that kind of thing I bought recently. I have a lot of problems with pillows. Damon in my life, I for whatever reason, I can’t get the right pillow. And I ordered a pillow from a company here in Australia. I’ll name them because it was a. It was a good, good experience, which was a koala. Was a company called koala here in in Australian company called koala, who would have thought, yeah. Anyway, so got this, this deliver. First of all, I get a call on the day to say that my pillow is on its way, and it will be delivered today, which I thought, Oh, that’s nice, you know, it’s system, you know, whatever I turn up, it the box turns up, and it’s beautifully, it’s almost boxed, like a like an Apple product. You know, how we all love, you know, we all keep our apple product, you know, boxes and whatnot and but as you opened it, you opened the box, it played Twinkle, twinkle, little star as you opened the open the box, right? So the moment that happened, it was unexpected, right? It wasn’t it was, it was personal. In some respects. It drove an emotion of, Oh, wow. You know, from I videoed it, and I put it up online. I said, how cool is this? I just that little moment. Now that’s, that’s the system. Now, that pillow wasn’t right for me. It didn’t, didn’t work, and I knew that they had a 30 day kind of trial period, etc. So I jumped online to return it, and the ease in which I was able to return that pillow was remarkable in it, in and of itself, because we often try and hide the ways in which we can return or refund. Yes, no, just being able to make that easy. But not only that, the within 15 minutes of me clicking a return on that that form, there was a gentleman on the phone with me, apologizing for it not being right, and that I’m really sorry that that hasn’t worked out for you, and that it’s been a bit of an inconvenience for you. Listen, we’re sending someone just package it up. We’re sending someone to come and pick it up from you, and letting you know that we don’t have to wait until that pillows back in our thing as we’re refunding that today for you. Wow, now for some for a company that didn’t end up making any money out of me. The roll on effect to me as an advocate out in the market, what they do get out of me, as you put earlier in the show, was they turned me into a salesperson in that moment. Yeah, and that’s the key piece around how we’re sort of generating, you know, growth and that kind of thing. It’s really important to note, though, that all of this has to be backed by data, right? So we need to actually look at conversion rates and how, what are we actually generating from those moments? How are we looking at those small advocacy moments. How we generating, lifting average sale value those kind of things via small moments and creating the unexpected, but also, you know, driving those advocates, and how do we actually, then look at turning them into reality, as far as business growth,

Damon Pistulka 28:24
yeah, yeah. Well, that’s that’s interesting, because you can talk about creating the experience, but then, what are some of the ways that you’re going to measure that? Is it going to be like the the average order size increasing over time? Or is it, you know, higher conversion rate, because we’ve got people that know more about us that come through. Or what are some of the key things that you guys are looking for when you’re creating these unexpected moments, to see if they’re they’re having impact?

Jay Tinkler 28:56
Yeah, there’s a couple of different ways. Is it? There’s a few ways through digital The interesting thing with word of mouth, right? Is it’s probably the lowest cost way of growing a business, yes, but it’s also the hardest to measure and to really sort of pinpoint that that’s where it comes from. What we have found, though, is through a number of digital products. We can measure advocacy. You can use things like affiliate links, those kind of things, to be able to drive where that’s coming from. One of the things that we find is one of the simplest ways of tracking, a lot of advocacy is whacking in every form, putting in every conversation, how did you hear about us? You know, and it’s it’s fascinating how often we leave that question for. Out of our conversations and our sales conversations is, how did you hear about us? And you’d be amazed, once you start putting these things in place, just how often it is somebody else was talking about you rather than and it’s not always sort of barbecue conversation. It’s often sort of social media, or it’s on a podcast, or, you know, that kind of thing that sort of is driving, driving the growth.

Damon Pistulka 30:34
Yeah, that is, that is something that I’m thinking about, thinking through forms and things that I’ve been associated with, gone through, you know some what it’s like, maybe 10 to 25% I mean, not very many at all, because everybody’s always going, okay. I just want the minimum amount of information, because they know that that’s might, might not get somebody to come through the form, go all the way through the form and submit. But great thing to know,

Jay Tinkler 31:09
yeah, and listen. The other thing that’s interesting is, if you’re driving more business out of advocacy, which is what we really all want, and why do we want that? It’s because of the fact that we are transferring trust from another human being to this new prospect, right? And that new prospect takes on is further along the trust journey. Yeah, they start that sales conversation. So we’re not going into we can cut down on costs, on building proposals or cut down on because of the fact that we have generated a trusted brand, but also we are now mobilizing our trust through advocacy. And so that’s where it starts to go. We’re not only growing our business, but we’re reducing our costs and speed of acquisition, through through word of mouth and general advocacy out in the market. Yeah,

Damon Pistulka 32:10
it’s very interesting how you’ve made creating advocacy for your brand a science.

Jay Tinkler 32:18
Absolutely, it has to be, it has to be Damon like and it has to, you have to actually look at the reason being is it’s a leaky tap if you’re relying on marketing, and, sorry, advertising types of marketing, yeah, because of the fact that you would, you’re, you know this better than I do, but you know, if we’re Talking about equity in an organization and its ability to survive without sort of the key person risk stuff that that plays out in business that relies on having a trusted brand and a brand out there that people believe in, if you rely On the only way your business works as if it’s either one person is the great salesperson or or the Google ads are the only way. What happens if Google turns itself off or changes the algorithm? Or, you know, we’ve, we’ve seen it happen before, or AI comes along, or, you know, all of that kind of thing it needs to rely on. There’s still a human element here that needs to be measured and needs to be important.

Damon Pistulka 33:35
Yes, yes. Such good stuff. Such good stuff. And I honestly didn’t think we’re, I didn’t know we were going to talk about this till today. This is great. Great. Yeah, no, it is. It’s incredible. And you go back, it is, it is the little thing. So you think about your your incredible experiences that you’ve had when you buy some things, and it really, it’s not the big things that make the difference. Usually it’s, are there are little things, like you said, the person coming back with a can of deck oil that says, I was thinking about it and doing this, or you get a card in the mail that said, hey, is this working out well? Because we just wanted to make sure that we, you know, we could answer questions, we could do whatever it was about that, and because they’re so infrequent, they really stand out,

Jay Tinkler 34:35
absolutely, absolutely. But at the core of this as well, I mean, like, you know, I don’t know whether you share this with me, but I know a lot of my male friends hate buying clothes, hate going into shops and buying clothes. Find it frustrate yet, yeah, okay, you know that is a common piece of information. That I have not seen a company yet tackle, right? Yeah, or E com. E com helps with that and that kind of thing. But there is a massive market there for someone to go we care about the fact that men hate this experience.

Damon Pistulka 35:21
Yes. So

Jay Tinkler 35:22
what? What can they but it takes listening, and it takes care to go actually, there’s, there’s something to play out there that that is important.

Damon Pistulka 35:35
You make a great point there, because I’ve never thought about like that. I mean, that is one known thing, right? One known thing, and if somebody took the time to study and came out with, Hey, we’re doing it a little bit differently. Yes, we are selling men’s clothing, but we’re doing it this way, and this is why we’re doing it this way, and this is how it changes your experience, or hopefully we how we hope to change your experience. So we’re talking in their terms, that would be pretty incredible when you’re when you’re really looking at that

Jay Tinkler 36:07
absolutely, absolutely. And it all starts. I’ve mentioned customer listening a couple of times today, and a lot of it starts with that. It starts with, how do we get really quiet. Stop having the speech all the time and talking of talking at people, and start having a conversation with our clients. And that can be as simple as having a coffee and saying, avoiding the words feedback, you know, that still is enough in them, kind of relationship and asking for advice from our clients, especially in service based businesses, I wish I could have a coffee. Could I have a coffee with you and just get your advice on where you would take this business as to, you know what? What’s working, what’s not working, that kind of thing now that just shift in language brings them on as a partner rather than as a customer, right? And what you’re looking for are the micro and macro motivations, or sorry, influences, that are affecting their motivation, so their motivations to buy are affected by we just talked about, I’m a male and I hate buying clothes. I just don’t enjoy the experience, and that’s a macro influence on my motivation that’s going to influence the amount of clothes I buy it now, probably the closest I’ve seen as far as fixing that problem are these boxes where they you just have a stylist send you a box with with their decisions for you. But even that is to I still want my opinion taking into this consideration and that kind of thing. And so how do you start to tackle, tackle that the other piece is the micro. So it might be at a, at, you know, at an individual level, or as a, as a, as a, a teacher, or as a person that lives in this particular area or this particular suburb, that there are other things that are getting in the way or are getting are changing the way in which I buy your product or service, and getting really clear on those motivations and those influences at a micro and a macro level. And then when you start partnering with them and saying, Okay, so if we were able to do this, is that something that you would be interested in? Oh, absolutely. Okay, so you’ve just had someone say yes to a product that you haven’t got yet. Great. How about we go and build that product? Yes, right? So that’s where it starts to get super interesting, is start with that customer listening, look at those micro and macro influences that are affecting the motivation, and then dive into demonstrating a level of intention and warmth of intention to that human

Damon Pistulka 39:18
being that’s awesome. Well, you know, like you said, so many people kind of got lazy with this. You know, when Google came around with the ads, and then Facebook came around with the ads, and all the other social media has the ads and it’s, it’s relatively easy to spin up ads and pay money, hope you get sales from it. But the you know, the long term effect for those that have, you know, living in the ad space go back five or six years, and your ads were 50, 75% less per click. Right, something like that, sometimes a lot less than that and that just, you know, starting and building on that strategy, and not thinking about what you are and creating advocacy, and really creating a brand that does create the advocacy that turns your sales force out exponentially, is really hurting a lot of these companies now, I think because, you know, we’ve, we’ve seen spikes in the e Commerce Industry where, okay, we had covid. Everybody’s inside, they’re ordering like crazy, because everybody wanted to do that. And then as soon as it was gone, it went to crickets. Everything crashed. Now, did those people still want those kind of products? Some maybe not, but a lot of them did. They still needed the same thing. Wanted the same thing. It’s just they were on to other stuff. And if you would have created a I’m going to use, right, sir, a memorable, a memorable, there we go. Experience at that point. Just think how much better you would be because there were companies that boom 50% drop in 2022, and beyond, just because that, because that the the demand wasn’t there. Ads weren’t working like they were before, and they had, hadn’t taken the time to really create that feeling, that advocacy in their brands. I think So

Jay Tinkler 41:28
absolutely, absolutely. I think it’s probably worth saying that we are also past the play, the place of service being enough, right? So like, and if you look at someone like, and Joseph pine wrote a great book called the experience economy that sort of speaks to this topic. And I guess where we’re at now is because of the level of messaging we’ve got out there and the customer, the over overload of communications we’re getting across multiple channels, we don’t need someone telling us we’ve got good service. You go into a restaurant now, if you’ve got good service, it’s expected. You don’t talk about good service, you’ll talk about bad service, but you won’t talk about good service. It’s just, well, good, good service. You used to say they’re great group. They’ve got great service there. It’s no longer a thing because of the fact we expect good service now, right? So it’s no longer remarkable to have good service. What we’re wanting, though, is we’re wanting companies and organizations to understand us deeply and then partner with us on our own transformation. So how do we find ways in which we understand our customers, if we take a company’s lens here, understand our customers and then step into this beautiful place where we’re then partnering with them to transform so a fitness trainer used to say, Listen, if you come on board, we’ll, you know, do some hill runs, and we’ll, you know, do some bicep curls, etc, etc. You can tell I don’t use a fitness trainer, but, you know, you have this. That’s what used to the language used to be now the fitness trainer is saying, Okay, what does this mean to you? What does this mean to your family? What is this? Where do you want to be in three years time, you know, and let’s do this together, right? Okay? And you know that might go from, you know, I want to look good on my wedding day through to I want to be able to, you know, still be out mucking about with my kids in 10 years time, but they they partner with you on that transformation, and that becomes a sticky relationship, yep, but it also is where we’re able to demonstrate going back again to this level of warmth, of intention and care and trust that has to build that long term profitable partner.

Damon Pistulka 44:26
Yeah, that’s incredible, man. That is incredible the way you said that you know, partnering on them to transform them and and really understanding, helping them understand what does it us? Understand what it means to them if they transform

Jay Tinkler 44:46
absolutely, yeah, yeah. It’s a value alignment, right? And we do this in friendships every day of the week, like we don’t. We don’t say, Listen, if you’re going to be. My friend, I will call you once a month. Okay? And it doesn’t work like that, right? It works like that. When we say, Listen, what’s going on for you. How do I, how do I, and how do I help you get there. You’re really struggling at the moment. What’s what’s going on? We can, I can help. We can, we can get there together. Yeah, and that’s what it should, business should be. But unfortunately, there’s been a lot of speed and but we’re circling back to a place now where we’re needing the human back in as much as AI, and all of this is taking we’re asking for the human to say, hey, we care, care about you.

Damon Pistulka 45:44
Yeah, it’s a nice place. I mean, it really is. We’ve got the convenience. Like you said, we we expect the level of service when you bring the human back into it. I was just talking about today with somebody, that human to human interaction and businesses is what we crave and what we really if we can get that, a lot of other things just fall in line.

Jay Tinkler 46:08
Absolutely. I’m so glad you said that, because it is everything else takes care of itself. Once you start to create a product and a business and a brand that successfully communicates the level of warmth, of intention to another fit, to your prospects, to write audience,

Damon Pistulka 46:29
yeah, yeah, good stuff. Well, Jay, we’re, we’re running out of time going, man, it is so great to talk to you today. I I’m tell us what you’re doing at remarkably, tell how, tell people how they can get a hold of you so that, I mean, let’s give us through the little bit of that, because I want to make sure we don’t leave without people knowing exactly what you do, how to get a hold of you and and reach out if it’s, if it’s appropriate.

Jay Tinkler 47:00
Amazing. Thank you. I super appreciate that. Listen, we at remarkably, we’re focused on using data and really getting deep into the weeds of what’s happening for your customer. So this is, you know, mature companies that have, you know, passed that sort of first honeymoon phase of building their business, they’re looking to pivot now and really grow their business in remarkable ways. Is going deep with customer through and unpacking insight micro and macro influences that are going to drive opportunity for product and growth within organizations. So that’s the type of organization we look after. And probably the best way for people to contact us if they’re interested in sort of understanding more about what we do, is just remarkably R, E, M, a, r, k, A, B, L, y.com, dot au, remember the AU at the end? Yes, yes. Well,

Damon Pistulka 48:05
we’ll, we’ll definitely make sure to get that into the show notes and on the blogs and everything when we put this out. Jay, thanks so much for being here today. I really appreciate it. I wanted to also say thank you for the listeners out there. I know we, we’ve got you out there. I know you’re listening. If you didn’t came in this late. Go back to the beginning. Start it. Jay has dropped some real golden nuggets here about how you can connect with your customers and potential customers at a level that shows that warmth of intention, shows you care, and really builds advocates for your brand. Thanks so much for being here today, Jay, I’m gonna we’re gonna shut this down. Live everyone. We will be back again next week with more great guests on the face of the business. Jay, hang out for a moment, and we’ll end up offline. Thank you, sir. Have a great day, everyone. You.

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